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Abandoned Yugoslav war monuments (that look like they're from the future)
Partija Rada
Jedes Herz ist eine revolutionäre Zelle
Damn, those are interesting!
Cool, but...Abandoned war monuments?
Some of these are holocaust/genocide/massacre/etc., etc. memorial statues and are by no means abandoned. http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=6468
Also, the Tjentište one is pictured twice.
Last edited by The Young Pioneer; 27th January 2012 at 15:02.
"Nothing is more terrible than the logic of selfishness." -Karl Marx
"The founders of Marxism cautioned that one should not believe 'what each age claims and boasts about itself.' Of course this must apply also to Marxist historians."
Oh, how do they treat it? (Serious question, I only just began learning about Jasenovac for myself.)
"Nothing is more terrible than the logic of selfishness." -Karl Marx
"The founders of Marxism cautioned that one should not believe 'what each age claims and boasts about itself.' Of course this must apply also to Marxist historians."
This is hardly true.
President and prime minister visit this place every year. They call it "place of genocide", which you can easily find out in their speeches. Of course, it depends on who's in power (right wing party such as HDZ has different rethorics than liberals). Croatian nationalists who follow politics of F. Tudjman (first Croat president), recignise Jasenovac as place of genocide where Croatian fascists killed Croatian communists (they don't mention others) which fits into ideology of "Croatian unity", where Croatian fascits and communists should unite under the wing of Croatian nationalism.
Also, if I was on your place I wouldn't play with numbers, especially when you write numbers fabricated by Serbian nationalists or Yugoslav government in 1945 for Paris conference.
If you visit Jasenovac memorial site you can find number of 80.914 victims, Yugoslav demograph Vladimir Žerljavić wrote that there were 83.000 victims, Simon Wiesenthal Center 85.000, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum from Washington 77.000-99.000 etc. I think that these numbers are closest to truth.
But, I personally find all people whoare forcing discussions on numbers idiots, because those numbers and body counting serve only purpose of nationalism. For internationalists only thing which is important here is that really a lot of people died because of conflicts between fracitons of capital (fascist and anti-fascits) and that we need tear this system down if we don't want this shit to happen again.
I knew you would get in here.
And that is digusting.
You failed to understand me,i said that some 600000 people lost their lives in the NDH,most of them were Serbs.This has nothing to do with Serb nationalists.
Please,stick with reality.Hundreds of thousands died in the NDH,and in Jasenovac concentration camp.
You are the one forcing numbers.And this is not for the purpose of nationalism,but for the truth,because its mad to say that less than 100.000 people died.
Fascists and anti-fascists?
This is really wierd.It was hardly fascists vs anti-fascists when the Usatse forced Serbs into trains.That was not a combat,it was a massacre,genocide,one of the most horrible during the war.
However,the Ustase/Cetnik/German alliance VS partisans could be simplified down to fascists vs anti-fascists.
A couple? Even the lowest estimates (I've seen, anyway) are in the 30 thousands, no?
Let's go back to your original statement about the republics as a whole. You say they all lack concern for the memory of what happened.
But why are we throwing stones at only Croatia, then?
It may be due to my as-of-yet rudimentary study of the area's history that I believe this but, in my opinion, Croatia gets all the crap. Are we still in 2012, penalising/accusing an entire nation (4+ million people) of the same kind of mentality as Ustaše, which at its height was only 60k strong?
Keyword some, as with any atrocity, you will have deniers. I'd love more information on this bit, though.Do you have any sources I could check out?
"Nothing is more terrible than the logic of selfishness." -Karl Marx
"The founders of Marxism cautioned that one should not believe 'what each age claims and boasts about itself.' Of course this must apply also to Marxist historians."
Yes i know,but some right-wing people in Croatia are acting as if even less people died,nothing surprising there,typical nationalist rhetoric.
Yes,people in all of the republics slowly forget {newer generations dont study a lot about it,and are not interested at the subject} what happened,ignorance is rising,right-wing politics and conservativism.
Grim old future.
Are we?I thought we were attacking right-wingers in Croatia.
All right,we could attack right wing nutjobs in Serbia.
Its sad that there is so much Nazis in a country that gave so much people against Hitler.
You definitely dont know enough.Croatia does not get "all the crap" but right wingers in Croatia should be attacked.Same goes for Serbia.The Ustase had many supporters,only the military units in 1944 had about 100000 men.Not to mention the home-guard and other German helpers.
Just google it.
Calm down everyone, let's not start another civil war. The conditions of numerous war monuments around the world are disgusting. Modern society is brought up to just look at the present and to forget the past. For example, look how the young people are treating the 3000+ year old mummy statues in Egypt.
"If ever a pen was a weapon, it was the pen which wrote Lenin's 1917 texts."
This also made me quite angry.
On the other hand,the monuments mentioned above are not in a good shape,but for an example,there are many monuments that have been covered with Nazi symbols and grafiti.
I saw a statue of a Red Army soldier with a huge swastika on his head,and even,after some time,no efforts were made to repaint the figure,so the swastika remained there,burning the memory of the veterans who would pass near it every day.
As I've stated numerous times, oh Omniscient One.
Oh, equality, great! Thanks.
I'll just shut up now before I'm banned for being accused of nationalism involving a country that's not even mine.
How helpful you are!
Also- Agreed, GatesofLenin.
"Nothing is more terrible than the logic of selfishness." -Karl Marx
"The founders of Marxism cautioned that one should not believe 'what each age claims and boasts about itself.' Of course this must apply also to Marxist historians."
What?Nobody is going to accuse you of nationalism.
{- More precise information about the Ustase terror units:
There is an imprtant political reason why Kontra engaged in the game of numbers, one which he explicitly stated, but it seems that some "communists" incapable of grasping the basics of such a position.
To argue that hundreds of thousands were massacred in Jasenovac is to swallow the load of shit that is nationalist propaganda, and further than that, it's not true. To repeat what shouldn't be repeated, lest Valter come marching in with idiotic accusations, no one here is engaging in any kind of a defence of any kind of nationalism, least of all of Ustashe fascism. To call the bluff is not to engage in such acts.
But Omsk's problem is that they are being, probably deliberately, obfuscatory in their rhetoric (because it's hard to disentangle "NDH" and "Jasenovac", not distinguishing from casualties of war and executed, tortured prisoners, while the user keeps asserting that "hundreds of thousands dies at Jasenovac and NDH" so go figure).
The bottom line being that communists shouldn't fall for bourgeois propaganda and spread it round like ignorants. Something which is obviously not an easy task for some people.
FKA LinksRadikal
“The possibility of securing for every member of society, by means of socialized production, an existence not only fully sufficient materially, and becoming day by day more full, but an existence guaranteeing to all the free development and exercise of their physical and mental faculties – this possibility is now for the first time here, but it is here.” Friedrich Engels
"The proletariat is its struggle; and its struggles have to this day not led it beyond class society, but deeper into it." Friends of the Classless Society
"Your life is survived by your deeds" - Steve von Till
What am i reading..
No actually,they didnt read my post,thats all.
I said that about 600000 people died in the NDH.A lot of them in Jasenovac.
Now,should we go into the subject of the failure of some people to accept the past of their country,is a story i'd rather skip.
Lets forget things for a moment,how much,in your opinion,did die in the genocide?
Last edited by Omsk; 27th January 2012 at 18:02.
Words assembled into sentences.
Now, the story shifts a bit. Moralist panic, ready to sound the ustasha alarm bell, now it's "a lot". Yes, a lot of people were killed, massacred, tortured in fascist concentration camps, and it would be "a lot" if 10 people were killed in that way, but it wasn't 10.
And let's see whether I read your posts:
When it's time, after the comma, to clarify just how many people were killed there, then we've got a full stop, also without distinguishing men killed in combat from concentration camps victims.
But such lack of clarity is excpected from your demagogic kind.
And you're a coward for obfuscating the implied accusation of nationalism. Wonderful.
Just to set things straight, I have no country, and for a very long time I felt like this. It's really pathetic to accuse someone who accepts the Simon Wiesenthal Center's estimated death toll, as realistic and approximative enough, in such a sneaky way. But I might have been less than clear on the issue. It doesn't matter whether it's true that 85 000 or 77 000 or 99 000 people have been killed there. It's atrocious, it's fascism, it's capitalism.
What matter here are political motives for numbers' juggling (since it's obvious that you don't accept the numbers which were sourced by Kontra), and the consequences of adopting the element of nationalists' propaganda. If you didn't do the latter, and it's kinda hard to see if you did cause being vague, elusive and sneaky is obviously your game, then I apologize sincerely.
FKA LinksRadikal
“The possibility of securing for every member of society, by means of socialized production, an existence not only fully sufficient materially, and becoming day by day more full, but an existence guaranteeing to all the free development and exercise of their physical and mental faculties – this possibility is now for the first time here, but it is here.” Friedrich Engels
"The proletariat is its struggle; and its struggles have to this day not led it beyond class society, but deeper into it." Friends of the Classless Society
"Your life is survived by your deeds" - Steve von Till
How much were killed in Jasenovac,Stara Gradiska,Gospic,Lepoglava,Caprag,Sisak,Gradina,Jad ovno,Jablanac,Mlaka,Loborgrad?
Only in Jasenovac,about 3000-4000 people were captured there daily,and only 1053 remained alive.They,decided that they would rather die fighting the Ustase and tried a breakout.{The poor people were led by Cedomir Huber,Dragutin Skrgatic,Jovo Zivkovic} and on the 22. April 1945 at 10h and 15 mintues broke trough the doors of the main building shouting "Comrades forward!"
Combat?The Ustase terrorists mostly slaughtered poor civilians,who could hardly defend themselves.
There were hardly any political reasons here..
To make myself clear again,i did not accuse anyone of being a nationalist.
I hate arguing numbers.
From my point of view, if one person died just because he/she wasn't suitable for the state - it's enough.
Some sources say this, some sources say that. I agree that Serbians (nationalists, which is important to notice, and only Menoccio pointed that part) pump up the victim count, but Croatian authorities (which is also important to notice), minimize the count. Fuck them both.
Than again, I can't believe Kontrazzvedka is arguing this from a bourgeois perspective. So what if Josipović vistits Jasenovac and defines it a massarce? Does it make it more of a massarce it was? The this is, politicans do all sorts of shit to make their financers happy. And neither of us should be applaud their confessions as our 'victories'.
Jedes Herz ist eine revolutionäre Zelle
I agree, but it's not about state. It's about nature of capitalist crisis which put war machines roll...
I'm not arguing anything from bourgeois perspective. I've just said that Jasenovac is important part of Croatian "nationaly unity" rethorics and ideology. Which is why politicians visit places such as Jasenovac, or Bleiburg on the other hand. Politicans do this because this rethorics is part of modern day Croatian nationalism, which is why anti-fascism is part of Croatian Constitution. So, I've just put some things in the right place and I'm not arguing anything, but that I take no sides in imperialist wars or in nationalist rethorics (such as pumping number is).
The only side I'm on is side of international proletariat. Fuck yeah.
Also, Jasenovac monument is in a good (or at least decent) shape, comparing to other monuments. Not that I care much of them anyway... but still, I don't like when people discuss this topics in a way that they spark nationalism.
Liza, I am just curious, but where are you from? In the U.S., I find that most news articles and academics are very pro-Croatia and anti-Serbia in their rhetoric (especially regarding the recent wars, but also in reference to WWII and the SFRY too).
