Arguing with Christian morals

[Red Noob]

So I've recently come out of the Commie closet with my father, and I've been giving him a run for his money trying to turn him, or make him sympathize and understand, and get him out of the Cold War mentality. I've managed to get past the "It goes against human nature", "It only looks good on paper", and "It kills a worker's incentive". The problem is he tightly clings to his Christian beliefs, and openly admits to basing his morals on Christianity, and thinks a secular society lacks morals, and would ultimately lead to the collapse of such a society. How can I combat these statements without being disowned?

[hatzel]

If you're serious about this whole endeavour with your father, I would heartily recommend reading the various Christian socialists. People like Tolstoy, Jacques Ellul, Gustavo Gutiérrez. I admit I'm more clued up on Christian anarchism, but perhaps some of the articles and texts on Jesus Radicals could prove enlightening (though not all of it would be to everybody's taste, what with the occasional forays into primitivism) - there's a lot of Ellul on there, for example.

I suggest this because I firmly believe in the importance of tailoring one's argument to the individual in question, and making sure you speak their language; if discussing the cause for statelessness with a Jew or Christian, I would cite the book of Samuel, for instance, whilst obviously I wouldn't if talking with an atheist. The writers mentioned (and others, of course) draw lines between socialism and Christian teachings, and as such their arguments may prove more convincing to Christians than non-Christian or even anti-Christian arguments may. There's no point giving a Christian a book that spends a couple of chapters attacking Christianity and expecting them to embrace socialism afterwards. Give a Christian a book which argues in favour of socialism from an explicitly Christian perspective, however, and you'll probably have a lot more luck.

[Nox]

Ask him why atheists don't go around murdering eachother.

If he can't answer that, his argument is invalid.

[Stork]

Ask him why atheists don't go around murdering eachother.

If he can't answer that, his argument is invalid.

Yes, and also point out that there are Christians that use the bible to justify behaviours he would deem unchristian or immoral. The KKK for example and Christian communists and anarchists. There are plenty of good Christians and the bible is basically good, but you don't need to be a Christian to accept that treating others as you would like to be treated is a good thing.

[Cencus]

What are usually called Christian morals are actually 18th/19th century enlightenment in origin. Don't help your arguement I know but it really annoys me when that mislabelling comes up.

[Red Noob]

If you're serious about this whole endeavour with your father, I would heartily recommend reading the various Christian socialists. People like Tolstoy, Jacques Ellul, Gustavo Gutiérrez. I admit I'm more clued up on Christian anarchism, but perhaps some of the articles and texts on had to remove link due to postcount could prove enlightening (though not all of it would be to everybody's taste, what with the occasional forays into primitivism) - there's a lot of Ellul on there, for example.

I suggest this because I firmly believe in the importance of tailoring one's argument to the individual in question, and making sure you speak their language; if discussing the cause for statelessness with a Jew or Christian, I would cite the book of Samuel, for instance, whilst obviously I wouldn't if talking with an atheist. The writers mentioned (and others, of course) draw lines between socialism and Christian teachings, and as such their arguments may prove more convincing to Christians than non-Christian or even anti-Christian arguments may. There's no point giving a Christian a book that spends a couple of chapters attacking Christianity and expecting them to embrace socialism afterwards. Give a Christian a book which argues in favour of socialism from an explicitly Christian perspective, however, and you'll probably have a lot more luck.

Thanks that's primarily what I've been doing, comparing the goals and aims of a socialist/communist society to that of what Jesus preached, both sort of imply a brotherhood with man, equality, and acceptance. I will take a look into some of those books. Thanks, comrades.

[Mr. Natural]

I'm an atheist. Nonetheless, here's first Christians, Acts 2: 44-45: "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

And don't forget that Jesus flayed the moneychangers from the temple. (They're back)

Then there are the Bolshevik-Machists Gorky and Lunacharsky who, heatedly opposed by Lenin, attempted to create a "proletarian religion." "The idea was to embrace all that was positive in traditional religion, that is, the sense of community and man's yearning for transcendence, without adhering to belief in God, the supernatural world, or the immortality of the soul." (Helena Sheehan, Marxism and the Philosophy of Science)

So, my fellow dirty commie rats, don't communists yearn for community and transcendence (revolution) as do Christians? There is much fertile ground to seed here--much untilled soil.

It's also true that much of what has become Christianity is violent, sexist, homophobic, passive, etc., etc. So we have to choose our spots for communing with Christians, but this must eventually be accomplished if there is to be social transformation/revolution.

My red-green best.

[Franz Fanonipants]

What are usually called Christian morals are actually 18th/19th century enlightenment in origin. Don't help your arguement I know but it really annoys me when that mislabelling comes up.

this times a million

[Franz Fanonipants]

Ask him why atheists don't go around murdering eachother.

If he can't answer that, his argument is invalid.

lol ideas affecting the base

[OHumanista]

Indeed, I am atheist and Christian Socialism is definitely not for me, but it's by far the best route to attract a devout christian to leftism. Plus like others said "christian values" as used in modern day are just a political tool. Then there is extensive data pointing out that agnostics and atheists are no more criminal than the rest of us. And you may as well point out that a secular society means merely accepting all religions (and lack of one) and giving them no edge to use against each other.

[thriller]

What type of Christian? Catholic Worker for the win! Look up some things on Dorthy Day, she was pretty rad.

[Franz Fanonipants]

How can I combat these statements without being disowned?

gently and patiently reiterate your points always. your dad might be wrong about communism, but think about all the shit you probably are wrong about as well. he's family and obviously doesn't know much about what you believe in. make conversing about politics and stuff something you do frequently and non-heatedly if you can. he might not ever agree with you 100% but that's not the point.

[Azraella]

One of the things I do when I discuss communism with Christians, is that I point out that communism is Christian charity cranked up to 11. That is the easiest way for any Christian to swallow what communism actually is. I have no idea what political views your dad has(I'm assuming conservative based on this information) but I'd also point out that Christian socialists and communists exist(my husband is coming to mind).

[Franz Fanonipants]

your dad is a protestant right?

also, i wouldn't go w/the christianity = communism argument. mostly cus its not true, but also because you don't want to equate communism to some sort of soft-handed "equality" in your discourse. it is very helpful to, if people are receptive, term marxism as a tool for critiquing and understanding capitalism and more importantly the social relationships present in capitalism between laborers, labor, and capital. teaching communism as "ITS JUST REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH" or whatever harms our arguments as basically it makes most conservative american ideas of "socialism" and etc. true. and they patently aren't.

[Red Rabbit]

"Jesus was a Communist"

[Revolutionair]

lol ideas affecting the base

lol fulgar materialism

[TheCuriousJournalist]

When your dad says a secular society lacks morals, I think he is ultimately hinting at the fact that he believes non-religious people lack morals. You need to overcome this issue first before you can move on to anything else. In terms of how to do so, certainly start by using yourself as an example.

Also, you need to focus your critique of religion on organized religion itself, and perhaps not a belief in god. So don't attack your dad for believing in god, but do point out some of the flaws in organized religion like their tendency to go against their own word. If you can do this successfully you can accomplish 2 important things: 1)Convince your dad that people can be good without religion 2)Convince him that he is a good man not because he follows his religion, but because of something within himself

Once these two are done, everything else should come much easier.

[Inner Peace]

ah religion people are stupid anyway leave them alone this is the best think you can do. Or ignore them

[Franz Fanonipants]

lol fulgar materialism

you dummy that isn't vulgar materialism.

[TheCuriousJournalist]

ah religion people are stupid anyway leave them alone this is the best think you can do. Or ignore them

You realize how many people on the earth are religious right?
Ignoring them all = No chance for change.
Not to mention that the man in question is the guy's dad lmao..