Goli Otok-A Titoist Hell for Marxists

[mrmikhail]

That sounds like bullshit Stalinist fabricated evidence to me, or perhaps your own? How about one source, not from a die hard Stalinist with a hard on for everything that Stalin did?

*cough*

[tir1944]

cough
http://marxism.halkcephesi.net/Great...-chapter17.htm
cough

[mrmikhail]

cough
http://marxism.halkcephesi.net/Great...-chapter17.htm
cough

You mean the book that was written on "evidence" found in the confessions of those who were convicted at the Moscow Trials?

so, evidence obtained by torture is completely and without a doubt creditable.


I believe it!

[tir1944]

Why do you think the Moscow trials weren't fair?
Provide sources please.

[Per Levy]

Thanks to Ismail...

"Shortly before they left for Russia, Trotsky's emissaries, Konon Berman-Yurin and Fritz David, were summoned to special conferences with Trotsky himself. The meetings took place in Copenhagen toward the end of November 1932. Konon Berman-Yurin later stated:
'I had two meetings with him [Trotsky]. First of all he began to sound me on my work in the past. Then Trotsky passed to Soviet affairs. Trotsky said: 'The principal question is the question of Stalin. Stalin must be physically destroyed.' He said that other methods of struggle were now ineffective. He said that for this purpose people were needed who would dare anything, who would agree to sacrifice themselves for this, as he expressed it, historic task. . . .

In the evening we continued our conversation. I asked him how individual terrorism could be reconciled with Marxism. To this Trotsky replied: problems cannot be treated in a dogmatic way. He said that a situation had arisen in the Soviet Union which Marx could not have foreseen. Trotsky also said that in addition to Stalin it was necessary to assassinate Kaganovich and Voroshilov. . . .
During the conversation he nervously paced up and down the room and spoke of Stalin with exceptional hatred. . . . He said that the terrorist act should, if possible, be timed to take place at a plenum or at the congress of the Comintern, so that the shot at Stalin would ring out in a large assembly.'"The Great Conspiracy. The Secret War Against Soviet Russia by M. Sayers, A. E. Kahn
There's nothing hypocritical about what i wrote,think again.

except of course trotsky never met yurin and david, these 2 guys also claimed to have visited trotsky son in copenhagen even though he wasnt even there since he didnt got a permission to go to denmark. also when will you bring up "hotel bristol" while yo're at it?

seriously, stop this bs, read some real history and not lies.

about the topic, yeah tir is pretty hypocritical here, a marxist-leninist killed in yugoslavia not good, bolsheviks and other lefitsts killed in ussr a-ok. the point both events are fucked up and hardly deserve defense.

[Per Levy]

Why do you think the Moscow trials weren't fair?
Provide sources please.

torture confessions and no other evidence, sounds hardly fair. well, if you want to talk about this start a thread about this OR just look through the other countless threads on the topic.

[mrmikhail]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/hans.../xx/trials.htm

[Rafiq]

Tir I know it would appear that I usually defend you when people confont you about being just a troll, but in this case I cannot help it but assume you are one.

most of the threads you make are all flame bait. They are counter productive and carry no intellectual value whatso-ever.

Please, stop.

[Apoi_Viitor]

The problem with Titoist Yugoslavia is not the fact that Yugoslavia had death camps, but that they didn't have enough.

[mrmikhail]

The problem with Titoist Yugoslavia is not the fact that Yugoslavia had death camps, but that they didn't have enough.

uhhhh......okay then

[Rafiq]

uhhhh......okay then

He's reffering to a chit chat thread made by Tir that sais something similar about Stalin, he's joking.

[Pretty Flaco]

The problem with Titoist Yugoslavia is not the fact that Yugoslavia had death camps, but that they didn't have enough.

yeah, they could of just turned the whole country into a death camp. death to everything!

[tir1944]

Tir I know it would appear that I usually defend you when people confont you about being just a troll, but in this case I cannot help it but assume you are one.

Just a short question:have you ever heard of Goli Otok before reading this thread? I'm inclined to say that many people haven't,so i at least made a small contribution...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

They see me trollin'...

Yeah, this really is the height of hypocrisy from tir, as usual.

At least he's not doing his thing of, "hey guys, here's a source *links to source* what do you think about the murder of 1,000,000,000 innocents?" *sits back and watches thread unfold*.

[tir1944]

Yeah, this really is the height of hypocrisy from tir, as usual.

Where's the hipocrisy.

At least he's not doing his thing of, "hey guys, here's a source *links to source* what do you think about the murder of 1,000,000,000 innocents?" *sits back and watches thread unfold*.

Eh,no,read the OP,I didn't ask "what do you think of...",i just posted a (relatively) informative thread about something i assumed most people here weren't familiar with.
Sorry if this thread was of no use to you.

[mrmikhail]

He's reffering to a chit chat thread made by Tir that sais something similar about Stalin, he's joking.

Ahhh I gotcha.

Just a short question:have you ever heard of Goli Otok before reading this thread? I'm inclined to say that many people haven't,so i at least made a small contribution...

I have heard of it and read much into it. You didn't really make much of a contribution, aside from accusing Titoists of being anti-communists, oppressive, and pro-western, as well as taking up for the Moscow Trials which most people of intellect agree were nothing but show trials with torture derived confessions and baseless anti-Stalin conspiracy theories.

[tir1944]

I have heard of it and read much into it.

I asked Rafiq,not you.

You didn't really make much of a contribution, aside from accusing Titoists of being anti-communists, oppressive, and pro-western

I personally didn't accuse Tito of neither of these things,the facts speak for themselves though,fact which you have so nicely brought up.
Titoist regime was opressive as we can see,it was also pro-western (not somethign new of shocking) and,well,even Pol Pot called himself a "communist" for that matter.

[mrmikhail]

These people were indeed "traitors" to the Titoist clique,but most of them were honest Marxists who didn't want to betray the whole Communist movement.

Also they didn't want to "join" anyone,they wanted to fight against the Titoites removing the country from the international communist movement.

Hungary (and some other countries too) was,at least according to the GDP per capita,ahead of SFRY in 1989.
SFRY was hardly prosperous anyway.

No,it's Titoist betrayal that is to blame.

Where should it have been operated from then? Tirana,Prague or Warsaw?
BTW,the headquarters of Informbureau were actually in Belgrade IIRC.

It'be great if we had some data to compare the SOL in SFRY and,let's say Hungary or Bulgaria...
And i don't see how the SFRY had such a great standard of living anyway.Kosovars were living in abject poverty and Bosnia wasn't that better off either.
Titoist "striving towards Communism"=restoration of capitalism under red flags and demagoguery.

No,but the Titoist clique had no right to betray proletarian internationalism and break with the whole communist movement.

Many did want actually,although UDBA and mass repressions and intimidations took care of that.

Yes,Yugoslavia had the "privilege" to be the "showcase of capitalism" in the "Eastern Block",however they got all that money back,with dividends,in the 80s where Yugoslavia practically collapsed because of the massive foreign debt to the West.

Yes and i also disapprove of Nazis dealing with "enemies of the state".How could i possible be such a hypocrite,eh? Well,look,it's not the form but content that matters.Tito was specifically targeting Marxists Leninist.
I don't oppose the repression of enemies of the people in a proletarian state,however i oppose the opression of Marxists in a capitalist/revisionist state Tito's SFRY was.
I hope it's a bit clearer now.

you said every bit of that, short memory eh?

[tir1944]

I stated facts.
Now point out where exactly did i accuse the Titoists of " being anti-communists, oppressive, and pro-western".

[mrmikhail]

Anti-communist= where you stated they were capitalists and against the international communist movement

Oppressive= stating how they "oppressed" Stalinists in Yugoslavia

Pro-Western= where you stated "Yes,Yugoslavia had the "privilege" to be the "showcase of capitalism" in the "Eastern Block",however they got all that money back,with dividends,in the 80s where Yugoslavia practically collapsed because of the massive foreign debt to the West."

I think that covers it all, I'm sure everyone else will agree, no?