Thread: Classical/Marxian Labor theory of value for dummies

Results 61 to 68 of 68

  1. #61
    Join Date Apr 2010
    Posts 1,505
    Rep Power 0

    Default

    [QUOTE]
    This was like weeks ago Hopefully I can remember what we were talking about without having to go back.
    Ouch... double time


    Nope, gona have to go back...
    Ok, that's easy really. If they want to continue, they do. If they don't, they don't.
    Except Gacky explained that production will cease, presumably whether those workers want to or not



    Now, are you going to take the Rafiq line that you would "do nothing?" Or would you find something with which to productively occupy your time, as we all would?
    Except that one has to define "productively" in the context of a SOCIALIST community.


    Exactly, and good that it is. Risk makes one more careful and responsible.
    Or more cautious and irresponsible...

    The other benefit of spreading risk is exactly why corporations have overtaken self-proprietorship and other purely private business models; the hit doesn't hit quite so hard.
    For example, a big log is swinging at you. I can put my hand in the way, or my body. Which do you think will have a better chance at stopping it?


    It's not my job to define that, other than as "working with not for."
    One would think that it would be, considering that the entire basis of socialism is all about "working cooperatlively" to obtain common goals. For example, is working wherever somebody wishes, regardless of the consequences to the community, working cooperatively? How does the community measure "working productively?" ect
  2. #62
    Join Date Apr 2012
    Location Montreal, Canada
    Posts 579
    Rep Power 0

    Default

    First off there are many labor theories of value, this is just a basic basic overview. Karl Marx did not invent the labor theory of value, he added to it, and applied it to his economics, Adam smith and David Ricardo had different versions, even Aristotle, St Thomas Aquintes and as far as Benjamin franklin had theories based on the labor theory of value.

    The basic theory is that the value of a commodity is based on the labor put into it, so origionally you have raw materials and capital, those things are bought at a price generally also based on labor, and then you mix it with labor, which creates the added value of the commodity. So basically the value is all the material value that went into creating the commodity PLUS the value.

    Now when we say value, we are talking about an objective measure, we are not talking about what people as individuals value certain thing (so maybe value is'nt the right word), we are talking about a basic point on which exchange values are based, you could say its what commodities would be priced if supply and demand are at equilibrium.

    A commodity are things, (when we are discussing the LTOV) which are consumer goods (many would include services, as would I) and valued based on their use value. So for example, a hat is a commodity, and its value is based on the fact that you can wear it and keep your head warm and so on and so forth, but if you have a hat that was given to you by your father before he died that was his favorate hat you are not going to sell that hat for the market prices of a regular hat, that price will not be a commodity price, you have added sentimental value, the LTOV is NOT talking about that, its NOT talking about stocks and bonds, which are not commodities they are loans and non material capital, it is NOT talking about pieces of art who's value is sentimental, the LTOV is talking specifically talking about commodities based on use value.

    Now when you put supply and demand in the mix you get price, so for example a bottle of water is generally not that expensive in a competative market, and it generally has a low labor value as well, but when your at a music festival, where you have a supply and demand situation totally out of whack and you'll have prices much higher, the LTOV is NOT talking about that.

    So why is the labor theory of value important? Well it gives you an idea of a basic price that supply and demand will derive the market price from, and it also (especially when it comes to Marxian economics), shows the source of value and profit.

    Many opponents of the LTOV like to bring up the buggy vrs a car example, i.e. a carriage and a car take a similar amounf of labor to produce, yet most people weould value a car more, Sure, but go out and buy a carriage, lets say your a movie producer or a collector, and you want a carriage, its gonna cost you, because as demand dropped so did supply, but the price is STILL based on the labor time, which will be significant.

    Any time, the market value drops below the labor value of a product, it will stop being produced.

    You can basically track this overtime, the supply and demand of computers has'nt changed that significantly overtime, as more computers have been made more people have wanted them, but the prices have dropped, why? productivity means that it can take less labor to produce a computer, the same is the case with most commodities, (in this sense the supply and demand is effected by the Labor value, in the sense that productivity increases allow for more potential supply, meaning less labor time is used in production per unit).

    Now what do we mean when we say labor? We mean all muscle and brain power put into the production, So software production is not just printing the CDs, is finding the concept, writing the code and so on. This gets rid of the argument that neo-liberals have in their constant and desperate defences of capitalists when they say "But the bosses also contribute a lot, they come up with ideas and so on," YES, sometimes they do, and that is included, but whether of not their compensation is based on their labor is the subject of a different discussion.

    So as Industry develops ways to produce MORE per hour of labor, even if the supply and demand is the same, the price will drop, because the value has dropped.

    The implications of this theory are different, but for Marxists, and most Socialists, the implication is that of exploitation, the Capitalists profit is derived from extracting excess value from labor, along with other implications. However for other economists its implications are different, such as propertarians arguing that the value created from labor insinuates ownership of land for example.
    [FONT=Calibri]Zizek wrote: It is perhaps the ultimate case of the parallax situation: the position of worker-producer and that of consumer should be sustained as irreducible in their divergence, without privileging one as the "deeper truth" of the other.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Calibri]http://www.lacan.com/zizparallax3.htm[/FONT]
  3. #63
    Join Date Aug 2010
    Location northeast ohio
    Posts 4,643
    Rep Power 49

    Default

    Except Gacky explained that production will cease, presumably whether those workers want to or not
    Where?

    Except that one has to define "productively" in the context of a SOCIALIST community.
    Is what you're doing extracting surplus value from labor? If not, then you're being productive.... basically. Communities will have to decide among themselves what is productive or not.


    Or more cautious and irresponsible...
    Explain.
    One would think that it would be, considering that the entire basis of socialism is all about "working cooperatlively" to obtain common goals. For example, is working wherever somebody wishes, regardless of the consequences to the community, working cooperatively? How does the community measure "working productively?" ect
    I'm not sure Adam Smith told owners how to run their businesses.
    Save a species, have ginger babies!

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." ~Albert Einstein
  4. #64
    Join Date Apr 2010
    Posts 1,505
    Rep Power 0

    Default

    His very first note.


    Is what you're doing extracting surplus value from labor? If not, then you're being productive.... basically. Communities will have to decide among themselves what is productive or not.
    Ahh.. So how is socialism about unity and all that, if calculations to determine what is, and what is not, productive vary from community to community? How is trade possible?



    Explain.
    Not taking a risk can be the greatest risk... and the greatest irresponsibility.

    I'm not sure Adam Smith told owners how to run their businesses.
    No, but he pointed out that the shoemaker makes shoes for himself, and not for the betterment of mankind.
  5. #65
    Join Date Aug 2010
    Location northeast ohio
    Posts 4,643
    Rep Power 49

    Default

    His very first note.
    Elaborate. Consider me too lazy to go back.




    Ahh.. So how is socialism about unity and all that, if calculations to determine what is, and what is not, productive vary from community to community? How is trade possible?
    World wide working class political rule. When I say communities will have to decide, I don't mean necessarily within themselves. I just mean the communities of the future.

    No, but he pointed out that the shoemaker makes shoes for himself, and not for the betterment of mankind.
    And socialism works for workers, the betterment of mankind is merely a result of them being so personally connected to their communities.
    Save a species, have ginger babies!

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." ~Albert Einstein
  6. #66
    Join Date Apr 2010
    Posts 1,505
    Rep Power 0

    Default

    Elaborate. Consider me too lazy to go back.






    World wide working class political rule. When I say communities will have to decide, I don't mean necessarily within themselves. I just mean the communities of the future.


    And socialism works for workers, the betterment of mankind is merely a result of them being so personally connected to their communities.
    I guess you are still going to insist that socialists bear no responsibility in describing how a socialist community might function.
  7. #67
    Join Date Aug 2010
    Location northeast ohio
    Posts 4,643
    Rep Power 49

    Default

    That's correct. We bear no responsibility in prediction. And your "what about this" injections, are often unanswerable in any system, or nothing that capitalism doesn't already have a problem with.

    I'm happy to indulge, but if I don't think I have the answer, would you rather I lie?
    Save a species, have ginger babies!

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." ~Albert Einstein
  8. #68
    Join Date May 2013
    Location Portugal
    Posts 3
    Organisation
    BoyncanaltyXI
    Rep Power 0

    Default trfgsby

    Training is all typically the rage today Most of us don't have supervisors in our institutions anymore, we now have motor coach buses coachlinkjp com/]コーチ 財布,I was already muscling in the course of coaching before the demographic analysis showed that this younger ages don't want bosse and supervisors, they really want coaches as well as mentors Should you be ready connected with leading or creating other people with your organization, katespadesite com/]ケイトスペード バッグ 新作,developing mentoring skills may be one of your current greatest possessions

    The technique of teaching has emerge from typically the sports market We types of have a very view involving coaching as being a casual process exactly where everyone ought to be having a great deal of enjoyment, although this may not always the case oakleyautoretto com/]オークリー サングラス, As i do training workshops I will often get started them by questioning the questions of their sports activities, "What brands a great instructor? very well "What really makes a bad discipline? " Seeing that people list from the attributes it might be really clear that the things that make negative and positive mentors in the athletics arena is valid inside work place

    Great coaches give attention to skill as well as team development plus they receive exercising to help these groups with this particular Must our expectations and support involving coaches at work be virtually any different? Yet coaching on the job may, will not, be unsuccessful seebychloejap com/]シーバイクロエ バッグ,When it isn't able, it will always be for one of a couple of reasons: the actual coaching would not keep to sound mentoring process and/or the actual coach failed to take obligation for their position in achieving results

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 36
    Last Post: 4th October 2010, 08:43
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 5th September 2008, 22:53
  3. The Marxian theory of consciousness
    By Sacrificed in forum Opposing Ideologies
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 24th October 2007, 00:03
  4. Theories in Marxian Class Theory
    By JazzRemington in forum Theory
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 22nd May 2007, 03:29
  5. Classical Economics Versus the Exploitation Theory
    By Freedom Works in forum Opposing Ideologies
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 10th September 2005, 09:25

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts