Fox Hunting (UK)

[The Children of the Revolution]

Just wondering what people think about this, considering the government's proposed ban on hunting. (And because I had a 'lively debate' on the issue with a friend - I need to be reassured that not all of the population are as misguided and bloodthirsty as he :P )

Needless to say, my position is clear: an outright ban on what is clearly a barbaric 'blood sport'.

I Suggest a look at:

League Against Cruel Sports

Countryside Alliance (pro-hunting)

Any views, comrades?

[SonofRage]

killing an animal for sport is barbaric. Unless they are going to eat them, it shouldn't be allowed.

[Exploited Class]

I will one up Son of Rage, I would just say killing an animal for sport is wrong, but hunting an animal even for food is wrong at this point. Ever since the invention of the fence and breeding of animals for food, we (western society) doesn't need to screw with the eco-system balance anymore by hunting in it.

I am not saying that eating animals is okay at this point in a advanced society, but if it is going to be done then there is little need to mess up food chains by killing animals in the wild, tracking in trash, driving vehicles, deystroying brush and just causing all around enviromental damage.

I'd rather pay the price of a small ecological disaster with spread out ranging. I assume that fox hunting doesn't do the same wide scale ecological damage that american deer hunting, but it is high exposure sport and if it is outlawed it could be a domino effect that leads to further banning of hunting, sport or otherwise.

But yah you go out of your way to invent fences and pastures so you don't need to wander around hunting animals, they should serve thier purpose and be taken advantage of.

[SonofRage]

In some cases an animals population can get too high and there is a risk of there being large starvations. In these cases, as sometimes happens with deer, I think hunting them for food can be justified.

[Intifada]

I believe that fox hunting is cruel and unnecessary. It is uncivilised and barbaric, and it should definitely be banned.

First of all, fox hunting does not control the number of foxes. Just like most animals, fox numbers are regulated by the availability of food. If food is scarce and fox numbers are high in a particular area, only the dominant vixens will breed, making the population decrease. If the population of foxes is low, vixens will have large amounts of children and the population would increase. Studies have proven, that without any form of control, there would be no increase in the population of foxes and that the number of lambs taken does not rise either.

Hunters claim that foxes spread disease, such as rabies, and that killing them helps to stop the spread of disease. Actually, if a rabid fox was killed by a foxhunt pack, then the whole of that pack would become infected. In fact, fox hunting involves taking a group of dogs to lots of different places of the countryside. So, it is actually more probable that the dogs themselves are more libel to spread diseases. Foot and Mouth is a classic example of this. It is spread by mud, which is carried on the foot of an animal. If a foxhunt pack was to visit an infected area, they may spread it over the whole country.

Foxes are not pests. They do more good than bad to farmers, as they are very useful for controlling the number of pests on farmland.

Probably the most disgusting piece of evidence that suggests fox hunting is cruel is the fact that hunting organisations encourage foxes to breed so that they can be hunted. In fact, foxes were moved to the Isle of Wight so they could be hunted. In other places, artificial earths- that have been built by hunting groups- have been discovered. The purpose of these artificial earths being so that they can encourage foxes to travel to these places, and then hunt them. Even some members of hunting organisations have openly admitted to the building of these artificial earths.

Recent polls show that the majority of British people (from town and country) want to see a ban to fox hunting. I believe that foxhunters are killing helpless foxes out of fun and enjoyment. Think about it, would you like to be chased into a corner by bloodthirsty hounds, and then ripped apart?

[SonofRage]

When I referred to the use of hunting for population control I already mentioned the effect the food supply would have. I was not referring to fox huntingm which I agree should be banned, but rather I was responding to a previous posting which stated that hunting for food should be banned as well.

In the example of deer, hunting is sometimes appropriate (and people do eat deer). When the populations grow too large, there would be mass starvation (and starvation is a slow unpleasant death). There is also the problem of there being more deer wandering onto roads and not only getting themselves killed but also getting people killed in car accidents.

[toastedmonkey]

Im againest fox hunting. I live in the countryside (cumbria) and know plenty of people who go fox hunting. They all strike me as idiots.

Its completely unnessacery and unbelievably barbaric.

SonOfRage: An animal population getting too high and starving is natural. take the rabbit and Fox example.

There is a lot of rabbits, so the foxes can feast on these, consequently the foxes breed more, so the next year there are lots more foxes, but not as many rabbits because they ate alot of them the year before. So the fox population starts to shrink due to lack of food, this gives the rabbits a chance to breed again and their population increases... and the cycle starts again.

EDIT: This can happen across all animal eco-systems - the fox and the rabbit is just an example of one

[SonofRage]

Again, since this somehow does not seem to be clear to people. I was not talking about foxes. I was talking about deer specifically in response to another posting.

[pedro san pedro]

i am completely agaisnt this, fox hunting has absolutly noithing to do with food gathering.

may i suggest peter singre's book, animal liberation, as a source for any that feel killing for food is acceptable. it is a little old, and i am a bit drunk, but in terms of ethics is a great place to start.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Ok; the general position seems to be clear. (Thank you comrades, my faith in the public is sufficiently restored! )

What then, do you think of the pledge made by hunters across the country as described on the Countryside Alliance website:

"60,000 people from all walks of life took part in Declaration Day on Saturday 1st November, with over 40,000 signing the Hunting Declaration. By signing the Declaration this law-abiding minority has committed itself to breaking any hunting law accepting the legal consequences."

In other words, if a ban is implemented these morons intend to break it quite willingly - and to accept the consequences. On one hand, I think this shows a flagrant disregard for democracy and for the power of the law; on the other I think it is just a stunt to try and intimidate politicians into 'watering down' the anti-hunting bill. Sadly, I think it may have an effect...

Comrades? Your views?

[Al Creed]

I believe that the hunting of an animal for anything, food or otherwise is wrong.

However, I do not object to the eating of meat of animals that are bred for consumption. Sure, more humane measures can be taken with these animals, but to remove a source of vital nutrients that can be easily attained through the consumption of meat, is denying ourselves of a biological neccessity.

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by SonofRage@Nov 9 2003, 06:19 AM
In the example of deer, hunting is sometimes appropriate (and people do eat deer). When the populations grow too large, there would be mass starvation (and starvation is a slow unpleasant death). There is also the problem of there being more deer wandering onto roads and not only getting themselves killed but also getting people killed in car accidents.

I understand this to be a big stance of pro hunting groups that say that overpopulation is an excuse to hunt, I don't follow with that at all. At first glance of the issue it would seem that you are doing well for the deers by saving them from starvation, but that is not our place in the eco system. It is natural for a population to be too big for its own good.

First off it is too big usually because of our involvement with the eco system, killing predators like wolves, something that keeps the deer population in check. Right now the wolf population in the united states is almost non-existant because of us, an overpopulated society of deer could help keep them rebound by not making it hard for wolves to find food to survive. Second starving deer, although not pleasant to the humane mind, does serve a purpose. A lot of scavengers count on them dying, humans coming in making the kill and then taking the kill with them out of the enviroment, controlling starvation in the population, limit the chances of the scavengers finding food hurts the scavengers.

Again, hunting attracts a large amount of people to go into the enviroment and they do more harm than good. Untrained people wandering around the woods is going to cause damage.

If a large scale population is doing harm to the enviroment because the predator population can not keep up, natural deaths is not occuring and the prior years population didn't have a high enough starvation rate to reduce population. Then ecologist should alert us to the problem and then trained wildlife officials that know how to properly reduce a population without harming the enviroment in the process, should be the ones that do this. This meat and everything that comes from it should never go back to the human population, so as to limit the ability that the private industry has anything to gain from an overpopulation of deer. This way we can be assured that there isn't a profit motive behind scientists findings.

I seriously don't care about deer getting hit by cars. Even if it does hurt people occasionaly. There are prices to pay being apart of this world, you swim you take risks of being eaten by a shark, you wander in the woods you can get attacked by predators. For the most part we live comfortable lives, uneffected by harsh weather conditions and disease. Nature having a negative effect on us, cougars eating livestock, wolf attacking a person and deer getting hit by cars, does not give us a license for doing more harm to the ecology of nature.

[Hawker]

I am against any sport that requires the killing of an animal just for fun.You see all this hunting is not only dwindelling the fox population but it's also causing psychological traumas to the fox's.

Now with the hunting, the fox's are thinking that humans are one of their natural enemies now and attacking people unprovoked just like European wolves,they were hunted and killed,now they have psychologial traumas and attack humans unprovoked.

If you ask me.The Europeans are complete morons and idiots since they haven't notice the cause of their action,by hunting and killing,fox's and wolves.

[The Children of the Revolution]

If you ask me.The Europeans are complete morons and idiots

Comrade, please quantify that statement!!!

Not all Europeans are morons!!! Most of them, granted, but not all!!!

[Hawker]

Originally posted by The Children of the Revolution@Nov 10 2003, 01:18 AM

If you ask me.The Europeans are complete morons and idiots

Comrade, please quantify that statement!!!

Not all Europeans are morons!!! Most of them, granted, but not all!!!

Okay most Europeans are morons but no all of them.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Thank You "Hawker", much appreciated :P

[Mr Mojo Risin]

maybe you will take the same precautions before you label all americans as bloodthirsty idiots like the president. That annoys me, I don't want to ever be associated with the american public and its nonsense.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by pedro san pedro@Nov 9 2003, 01:58 PM
i am completely agaisnt this, fox hunting has absolutly noithing to do with food gathering.

may i suggest peter singre's book, animal liberation, as a source for any that feel killing for food is acceptable. it is a little old, and i am a bit drunk, but in terms of ethics is a great place to start.

peter singers book is wonderful. However, i wonder if most people realize that it is not necessarily about animal rights, actually it really had nothing to do with it. He doesnt even really say if animals are entitled to "rights." It is actually more of a philosophical approach to the life of animals. What Singer is essentially saying is this- animals are sentient, are beings (like humans are), and along with humans, their interests should be considered in, as gary l. francione says,"determining what was the best moral outcome for the largest number."

Anywho- fox hunting is wrong in my eyes. I believe it is barbaric and should be done away with it. There is nothing "sportsy" or "fun" about killing an animal for the hell of it.

Basically anything such as fishing (as "sport") and hunting is wrong in my eyes...

[truthaddict11]

isnt sport fishing catch and release?

[Invader Zim]

I hate hunting with a passion, and it will be a happy day when it is outlawed and the toffs get put in gaol with all the other common criminals.