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Fear and Loathing in the Deep Left
There I was, knee deep in bat country. Unsure of where to go next i found myself mired in my own thoughts on these philosophies and perplexed by what i had seen in others and in life and in this forum. Thusly i decided the only way to deal with these gruesome beasts was to take them head on, and so i joined.
Essentially, I started my political and philosophical life in High School, turned on to Ayn Rand by my home room teacher. That was okay for the time, it fit with the already rampaging stormy egotism and hero worship and cream rising to the the top. Then I started to notice as i read more and more of the books that I did not agree that it was contrary to a forward moving society to simply abandon everyone. It was around this same time i knew I'd be a therapist. I just had a huge want to do something for other people in a one on one way and it had helped me and i wanted to pay it forward.
That is how I became a Liberal when everyone i knew was progressing the other way from Liberal to Conservative. I kept leaning further left, because in my head there was no reason we are not capable of more, of better. I take messages like the one in say any of a million movies serious. That we are headed for a point of no return, one in which the result if we do not right our course will destroy us, or at least most of us. That while I see great terribleness in people, by becoming a student of the human mind, i can understand where those come from and what needs they are made to fulfill even if futile. I suppose this make me the biggest sap on earth, but I dont care. It feels right and on the last day of my life I'd rather feel right than either wonder or regret as much as possible.
So that is essentially how I found my way to Socialism, and then better understood it as a step or part of Communism. I was there for a solid minute. The more i read, the more I began to see some serious errors (imo) in the philosophy of Marxism and then in my opinion over corrections to it that resulted in bigger openings that ultimately lead to what we ended up with, which for me personally, I could not live with. Like, Stalism, Kimism, etc. now, you may have your opinions on why that isnt true or I'm an idiot, and thats all well and good. For me personally, I see the revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat being hijacked by opportunists eventually everytime. This is all of course summarized and quick typed from work, so lets be reasonable. Every post doesnt want to start a tendency war as i have noticed. I just want some input no one has to die.
So I found myself at a crossroads of Anarcho Syndacalism/Colletivism/etc. I've never met another one personally face to face. From reading on here and a few other sites though, they all seem to be crazy assholes, lol. this does not define me in the least. I'm not the kind who backs down from a belief just because some of the other people claiming it are ridiculous. We can find a real nutball amongst any belief set. I'm sure even the Fascists have a guy they're like "Whoa" about.
So how to proceed thats the issue. I simply don't see Communism paying off, or rather getting where it was trying to go. I see it stopping short and either rapidly or eventually breaking down into the death it was trying to avert. I do not agree with the statement "from each ability, to each need". Maybe... "from each ability to each production"? Hmm... I feel like when you raise people into a society like this, they come out with what they are taught. I can steal and cheat, I can lie and abuse, i must accumulate, I must belong, etc. However I feel that if we were raised into a society based upon these ideals, that we taught empathy, coping skills, etc, then its not impossible. it only seems impossible with the deep set ideology we have. Surely Democracy was spoken about as a dirty word in the monarchies.
I'm not a total anarchist either, at least judging off the very few I have met, maybe not even a Anarcho-Synd. That is the purpose of this. To flesh out. I've read alot of posts, alot of threads, and I have seen many Anarchos say and explain little while the Comms just deliver these huge posts of info. i just want to make sure I'm not bastardizing a thing or blaspheming or doing myself the disservice of looking like an idiot. And I'm readin, reading, reading. How much can i take from a text going on 100 in modern times thought has had evolution. I'm reading them too, Chomsky, Engels, everyone. Still... I guess i just want to hear from some actual Anarchists who arent these apparent bastards on these factors.
Is this relevant or agreed on? ---> anarchosyndicalism dot net
Are we with the communists until the dictatorship and then we split? is it amicable? What of all of this dissent? So many people fleeing AS becasue the people they encountered were bastards and no one ever worked together on the actual movement? Was not the Communist movement the same for ages, is it a size issue, and more i cant even get to as I have to go back to my job, yay...
Please, forgive noobness. Work with me here.
I'm trying to figure out the same as you, when it comes to the "to each according to his need" part, being a new leftist -- would someone who contributes much more to the communist society receive some benefits? If someone could answer that it would be great. Unfortunately I don't believe I'm in a position to give many answers...
...I fucking love Hunter S. Thompson though. High five, Comrade.
Good to see you're coming around? What are your political views though, you mainly said what you're not.
Society does not consist of individuals but expresses the sum of interrelations, the relations within which these individuals stand. ~ Karl Marx
formerly Triceramarx
If you don't agree with "...To each according to his need.", then I don't know what to tell you. Every human being deserves to have their basic needs met, regardless of what they do. We each contribute what we can, we have our needs and wants met in return. If there is something unfair about that then I'm content with being unfair.
[FONT=Garamond][FONT=Tahoma]estroy capitalism[/FONT]
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"[/FONT][/FONT]Socialism is neither an aspiration of angels nor a plot of devils. Socialism moves with its feet firmly planted in the ground and its head not lost in the clouds; it takes science by the hand, asks her to lead and goes whithersoever she points[FONT=Book Antiqua][FONT=Tahoma]."[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma] - [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma]Daniel DeLeon
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The point is that in communism we will have developed the capacities for abundance, so in reality it doesn't make much sense to give people different amounts since there is so much in excess of the necessities.
The saying is under socialism (precursor to communism) from each according to his ability to each according to his deeds. Under communism from each according to his ability to each according to his needs. So while we don't live in a society of abundance people will get different benefits based on how hard they work. This is different from capitalism as in capitalism you can own private property and live of the work of others, reaping nearly all the benefits from their labor.
“How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, shit, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?” Charles Bukowski, Factotum
"In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights' and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped." MLK
-fka Redbrother
Mother... I am not sure what you are asking?
Save a species, have ginger babies!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." ~Albert Einstein
If what you believe in lives out the words of The Internationale, then it doesn't really matter which precise little pigeon hole someone else might try to put it in.
Arise o prisoners of starvation
Arise o wretched of the earth
Our reason thunders indignation
From the old we'll bring new birth
We'll tear down this planet's false foundation
And build a better world anew
And we that live in humble station
Shall walk erect as is our due
Through the conflict comes power
Each one lift high your face
For in the end the Internationale
Becomes the human race
Through the conflict comes power
Each one lift high your face
For in the end the Internationale
Becomes the human race
That's what communism or anarchism or syndicalism or whatever you should choose to call your own way either is (or should be and isn't so get fixing it.)
I'm fairly confident Hunter is turning in his non-existent grave right now.
And if he start to scream, BAWM BAWM, have a nice dream, a true mothafucka going out for the loot.
"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."-Col. Gaddafi.
"Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters or take any from you."-Edward Teach.
Worst. Teacher. Ever.
"I have declared war on the rich who prosper on our poverty, the politicians who lie to us with smiling faces, and all the mindless, heartless robots who protect them and their property." - Assata Shakur
This would have been an awesome intro thread title(also good content too).
Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full.-Leon Trotsky
A revolution without dancing is not worth having.-Emma Goldman
The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall. -Che Guevara
The wise thing to do is simply to skip the bosh and twaddle and vulgarity and untruth, and get the benefit out of the rest. -Teddy Roosevelt
Elaborate.
And if he start to scream, BAWM BAWM, have a nice dream, a true mothafucka going out for the loot.
"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."-Col. Gaddafi.
"Damnation seize my soul if I give you quarters or take any from you."-Edward Teach.
On what I said or what the person said?
Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full.-Leon Trotsky
A revolution without dancing is not worth having.-Emma Goldman
The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall. -Che Guevara
The wise thing to do is simply to skip the bosh and twaddle and vulgarity and untruth, and get the benefit out of the rest. -Teddy Roosevelt
I think the primary issue i have is the generalized and open nature of that statement. Supposedly a tenant of socialism is, "The man who does not work, does not eat". I guess the thing for me is like Animal Farm/Stalin, DONT FREAK OUT, lets just say hypothetically okay? Who decides, who needs what?
See the issue is that greed isnt suddenly limited because money isnt there, especially since to really make a society like this work you need the education and life long vetting or conditioning that comes with it. that simply takes time. in capitalism your not just fighting an idea, but a dogma, one taught quite literally from the womb for ages now. Even if you succeed, this is a given of unchecked and unmastered human tendency, it will rear its head.
Right, the idea is that you are their machine making them a surplus value they then use to create a value on the product that isnt really there, its the amount you saved them by doing it cheap. you get screwed like any good robot/slave, and they go on to live a life of luxury while you toil and.. "no, Mr.Bond, i expect you to DIE!"
i've never followed norms or rules so i hoped that in my complete disregard for them, he might understand. Who knows... hehe..
Comrade, society does not need a market to decide whose needs are met. Nor are markets essential to human development (in the womb or otherwise).Originally Posted by mother
The thing is, you're viewing things from what historians would call a "presentist" worldview. You assume that what you observe is the totality of human experience, it is not.
Okay, one let me rephrase that, Syndicalists don't look like crazies from what I have read from the few I have seen here, it's that so many posts go "I used to be a Syndicalist, and I can't stand them they are all crazy".
Two people made a good point, it seems in my haste not to upset the boss, I may have left out great swaths of info and posted this in the wrong place maybe. Bear with me here guys, i did the best i could down there in that explanation, but this is really hard to do coherently while at work.
Without any crap from anywhere else, here is a bit about me, what I believe and believed. The question is, where do I belong? Not for the label, or the t-shirts, or whatever, so I can have a base of (friends?) whom I feel like understand me and I can bounce things off of, and (cousins?) ha-ha, that I can debate and discuss with. Does this make sense? I'd like to find some like thinkers in my region, it helps if I can say, I'm a "BLANK" too.
Here is what I think and believe. We can provide healthcare, it should be a right not a privilege in a civilized society. We do not need a state to function, however you cannot make a drastic change on this scale in this world overnight. Such a change is more susceptible to corruption than the thing it is replacing however odd or unbelievable that may sound. Any transition should be heavily edged towards the worker/common man as any form of state too quickly falls into opportunism and corruption. Participation should be compulsory with receivership. Education must be altered to teach coping skills, empathy, real living skills alongside history, math, language. People who can work and opt not to simply because they can't be bothered don't deserve anything. There is always a job to be done. Life should be about the living as much as the working and the working should be something you love and ace at as well.
People tell me that no one will work, that its utopia, that it fall to laziness. I tell them that people who are programmed for this will surely fail at that. That education a rearing can avoid all that. That capitalism is a utopian idea and is failing now, and we took a chance on it, why not take a chance on living. That even now people work long hours after work on the work of their dreams like electric cars, and all sorts of ideas for no pay, because they love it. How is this any different? Except that they will no longer be bound by the restrictions of affording supplies, affording ideas to move ideas forward? To harness peoples love of their talents and interests and the knowledge that work will reward with equal goods? That unlike Kpax, being civilized doesn't mean the end of living, it means the beginning of living. So, maybe I'm a loon or some bright eyed idiot, but I've managed to stay this way into my adult years and I live anything but a privileged life, it's been constant hardship with some bright spots. What I have they have made sure I paid for, many, many times over. I'll pay my fair share, but I don't think I'm getting a fair share and by that I mean time to live. I can see one day I am going to wake up and I will be too old and it will have all passed me by in the meantime while I was just making sure it was even possible.
Just after high school, knowing nothing of Marxism or Anarchism or really anything, I devised a kind of merit based system. The idea was to abolish money and yet allow people their inherent need to be better than someone else. There were levels, none was really poor. if you can work and you do work or your disabled, then you receive some sort of document and use it to get a certain amount of goods at set intervals. From cars to food. It had a lot of flaws, but then, I was 19.
anarchists/syndicalists ARE crazy comrade
I agree with coping skills being taught in school, but I don't know about empathy. That's just a basic human skill like talking isn't it?
formerly Triceramarx
i do understand that, but by the same spade its the transition from one whole completely integrated idea into another. it's like leaving the matrix and being Neo right? You've got these abilities and you can barely take in the reality of the world and it's all on you suddenly. My statement, and I should specified is one of the medium, because honestly that is where we seem to get lost everytime. int he movement from one to another. I wholeheartedly agree, but surely we cant expect to even see or fully grasp the totality immediatley. I see, maybe a couple of egenrations before anything could even be fully realized. Am I wrong? I'm speaking purely from what i know of the human mind and its grasp of things as they are now and our experience as a whole is all. even thats... fuzzy. heh
