Fear and Loathing in the Deep Left

[mother]

I agree with coping skills being taught in school, but I don't know about empathy. That's just a basic human skill like talking isn't it?

No, you would think so. but see the current idea, especially this whole concept of better than another and all that comes with it like capitalism itself teaches against empathy. Culturally, if you look, we weed out alot of empathy under the guise of fear and protection. Empathy, like any good trait has to be fostered and encouraged or it gets side lined by everything else in the ruch to accumulate. At least this is what seems clearly evident to me, and at least a handful of semi pro semi important thinkers about the human mind and development.

[mother]

anarchists/syndicalists ARE crazy comrade

But why? Please explain, or is this just a funny jab? I'm serious, i'm not mad...

[Franz Fanonipants]

i do understand that, but by the same spade its the transition from one whole completely integrated idea into another. it's like leaving the matrix and being Neo right?

This is rank idealism.

Ideas do not form our world, rather, our relationship to mat'l conditions do. When those mat'l conditions shift, our ideas follow suit, thus what you're talking about is a liberal fantasy. This is a cornerstone of Marxism.

Have you ever read any Marx?

[Art Vandelay]

First off mother I must say that I am a huge Hunter S Thompson fan so you thread title kinda jumped out at me and I loved the intro about bat country. I guess what I have got from reading your posts is that your new to the revolutionary left and you need a push in the right direction. It also sounds like you are more geared towards Marxism than anarchism as you seemed to stress the need for a transitional stage. And your mention of the matrix made me think of Plato's cave which might interest you if your a fan of that movie.

Okay first off I would suggest you check out maybe some left communism, I got the feeling that you came across as somewhat anti-authoritarian so I will leave those tendencies out but I am sure others can help you with them if you wish. A good place to start would maybe be Luxembourg, however I cannot stress enough, even as an anarchist, the necessity of reading Marx & Engels.

For anarchism I would suggest as a starting point maybe Berkman's the abc's of anarchism. I also happen to be a fan of Bakunin and Proudhon. I can easily mention some titles of works you could check out if your interested but the best place to go is marxism.org you can find pretty much anything there.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Okay first off I would suggest you check out maybe some left communism

laffo

[mother]

This is rank idealism.

Ideas do not form our world, rather, our relationship to mat'l conditions do. When those mat'l conditions shift, our ideas follow suit, thus what you're talking about is a liberal fantasy. This is a cornerstone of Marxism.

Have you ever read any Marx?

I have read the manifesto and i am in the process of digesting Das Kapital.

I am sorry if I offended.

I'm assuming mat'l is short for material?

Sure thats true, but to claim ideas in no way form our world, I dont see that at all. Sure. Some of the things I posted are utopian and probably nothing i will see in my life. Everything starts with an idea however. The part you quoted in my mind stands true. You were saying that I'm viewing it as though this is the totality of the human experience. I agree, a market is not necessary, yet we have yet to succeed in ridding ourselves of it in any applied society. Certainly its the totality of most peoples current experience, and the point for that was you cant dump a change in what people have been programmed into overnight. Not everyone will adjust at the same rate. Actually, you can, but why? That would be like shock and for what good, surely another method exists. thats what i see in Communism to date. Attempts to transition, that ultimately fail. The Soviet Union, China, etc. What i see is a transition to a promise of communism that never comes, because it always gets hijacked and then eventually reverts to some form of capitalism. In the middle we get lost. Why is that liberal fantasy?

I would contest that everything starts from an idea, and from that alone the greatest achievements we have made are born of such. That do not do so on their own, and i am not advocating doing nothing and waiting for life to come to us, but... perhaps i dont understand.

[Art Vandelay]

laffo

Thanks for that insight, really helped shed some light on a tendency for a new comrade. But then again I am not a stalinist so I guess I view other tendencies in a different light than you. Despite being an anarchist I do not hold the pompous and arrogant view that my tendency is the only way to revolution, which is why I would never tell someone not to check out its literature when by his own admission is new to the left.

But I guess I should be more like you and simply condescend him: "YOur such a utopian have you never even read marx!?" God the left would be such a better movement without people like you.

[Art Vandelay]

I have read the manifesto and i am in the process of digesting Das Kapital.

I am sorry if I offended.

I'm assuming mat'l is short for material?

Sure thats true, but to claim ideas in no way form our world, I dont see that at all. Sure. Some of the things I posted are utopian and probably nothing i will see in my life. Everything starts with an idea however. The part you quoted in my mind stands true. You were saying that I'm viewing it as though this is the totality of the human experience. I agree, a market is not necessary, yet we have yet to succeed in ridding ourselves of it in any applied society. Certainly its the totality of most peoples current experience, and the point for that was you cant dump a change in what people have been programmed into overnight. Not everyone will adjust at the same rate. Actually, you can, but why? That would be like shock and for what good, surely another method exists. thats what i see in Communism to date. Attempts to transition, that ultimately fail. The Soviet Union, China, etc. What i see is a transition to a promise of communism that never comes, because it always gets hijacked and then eventually reverts to some form of capitalism. In the middle we get lost. Why is that liberal fantasy?

I would contest that everything starts from an idea, and from that alone the greatest achievements we have made are born of such. That do not do so on their own, and i am not advocating doing nothing and waiting for life to come to us, but... perhaps i dont understand.

As a marxist-leninist the member you quoted would contend the exact opposite form what you just said. It is the material conditions that change this world not ideas.

[mother]

First off mother I must say that I am a huge Hunter S Thompson fan so you thread title kinda jumped out at me and I loved the intro about bat country. I guess what I have got from reading your posts is that your new to the revolutionary left and you need a push in the right direction. It also sounds like you are more geared towards Marxism than anarchism as you seemed to stress the need for a transitional stage. And your mention of the matrix made me think of Plato's cave which might interest you if your a fan of that movie.

Okay first off I would suggest you check out maybe some left communism, I got the feeling that you came across as somewhat anti-authoritarian so I will leave those tendencies out but I am sure others can help you with them if you wish. A good place to start would maybe be Luxembourg, however I cannot stress enough, even as an anarchist, the necessity of reading Marx & Engels.

For anarchism I would suggest as a starting point maybe Berkman's the abc's of anarchism. I also happen to be a fan of Bakunin and Proudhon. I can easily mention some titles of works you could check out if your interested but the best place to go is marxism.org you can find pretty much anything there.

Well, imagine it is the matrix, only instead of machines its a life long of conditioning into a system in which you were always lead to believe you could make it despite overwhelming evidence that you most likely would not. Isnt that capitalism? Is that not what keeps them fat and happy and working for the man? Is that not like being a junkie? I cant see the difference. One more, one more, just one more.

My reading list is as follows:
Done - communist manifesto
In progress - Das Kapital
TBR - Conquest of bread
Mutual Aid
The Place of Anarchism in Socialistic Evolution An Address Delivered in Paris

[mother]

As a marxist-leninist the member you quoted would contend the exact opposite form what you just said. It is the material conditions that change this world not ideas.

I see. I suppose it is possible that the ideas are thought of as a result of the condition that causes he need for the idea. Is this the only reason for any change in the world? Maybe up to some point in history i could see that. Will it always be the only reason and has it. I'm not sure I can agree with that. Often yes, only, eh... I'm not convinced.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I have read the manifesto and i am in the process of digesting Das Kapital.

I am sorry if I offended.

I'm assuming mat'l is short for material?

There's no offense at all comrade.

The thing is, in order to understand Marxism you'll need to understand that big parts of this ideology are based on rejecting the intrinsic value assigned to ideals (like natural rights, constitutionalism, etc.).

If a change is not based on a fundamental reordering of people's relationship to material conditions, then it is no change. You can truly and deeply believe in human rights, you can establish a world court at the Hague to try people who commit atrocities, you can enshrine liberty and democracy and free speech, you can do all these things but none of that will liberate a single individual.

The fact is, capital will still persist.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Thanks for that insight, really helped shed some light on a tendency for a new comrade. But then again I am not a stalinist so I guess I view other tendencies in a different light than you. Despite being an anarchist I do not hold the pompous and arrogant view that my tendency is the only way to revolution, which is why I would never tell someone not to check out its literature when by his own admission is new to the left.

But I guess I should be more like you and simply condescend him: "YOur such a utopian have you never even read marx!?" God the left would be such a better movement without people like you.

The problem is that you immediately jumped to "HEY CHECK OUT THIS AWESOME ULTRA-LEFT DEAL!"

We should not proselytize for our tendencies here, but rather give people a wide range of options and tools for forming a critique.

[mother]

There's no offense at all comrade.

The thing is, in order to understand Marxism you'll need to understand that big parts of this ideology are based on rejecting the intrinsic value assigned to ideals (like natural rights, constitutionalism, etc.).

If a change is not based on a fundamental reordering of people's relationship to material conditions, then it is no change. You can truly and deeply believe in human rights, you can establish a world court at the Hague to try people who commit atrocities, you can enshrine liberty and democracy and free speech, you can do all these things but none of that will liberate a single individual.

The fact is, capital will still persist.

Can you point me to something here? I don't see how any of those things is exclusively married to capital and capitalism.

Revolution is the only way, is what your saying... yes? This is the slow change / revolution debate? I dont know if thats what your asking. Not yet. You and i are here without a revolution. ont he other hand i see evidence for its need. I'm not decided. To call it like you did is a bit... I guess for its time i could agree when Marx was alive, but the more you educate a society i think it will eventually come to this on its own too. I'm not just not sure where i am on this yet.

Did the revolution and indeed marxism not come from an idea?

I am also saying post revolution this will all need need upkeep. From what I've seen, even revolutions and the results of them can slow slide and decay into capital so they alone are not enough. That's where the ideals and ideas that motivate come into play.

Your defining question is, "will it liberate"? if it cant liberate then its not worth it? those ideals of at least some of them, they do not factor in a marxist society?

[La Peur Rouge]

The problem is that you immediately jumped to "HEY CHECK OUT THIS AWESOME ULTRA-LEFT DEAL!"

We should not proselytize for our tendencies here, but rather give people a wide range of options and tools for forming a critique.

So you call for a wide range of options to be presented...then condemn an Anarchist for suggesting Left Communist literature...

[mother]

I have to be approved, so some of my posts are appearing but later, but in line timeline wise, so you have to go back to read what i said even it wasnt there before, its a little weird

[Franz Fanonipants]

Can you point me to something here? I don't see how any of those things is exclusively married to capital and capitalism.

Marxism is not a plan for restructuring society, unlike liberal ideas of freedom or equality. Rather, it's a working critique of capital.

The observation of mat'l conditions is more important than any sort of political agenda. So Marx, writing at the time of major expansion of capital, identifies the behaviors of capital and its relation to the means of production, labor, etc.

That's what Marxism is. A lot of fuzzy-headed business does go on in contemporary leftist thought about how if only people understood this, or knew that, they would be liberated. An idea, a knowledge, cannot liberate. Rather observation and criticism from observation need to always be deployed at the center of any Marxist political effort. In my opinion and whatever.

[Franz Fanonipants]

So you call for a wide range of options to be presented...then condemn an Anarchist for suggesting Left Communist literature...

my bad on that assumption then.

[joke]but really i mean what's the diff?[/joke]

[RedMarxist]

I had the good fortune discover radical leftist politics by myself. It all began when I read the Communist Manifesto-and agreed with it.

We, as people, are basically chained to Capitalism. Remember what happened to Arbenz or even the Russian people during the revolution when they turned away from inhuman accumulation and towards helping society? Invasion.

Which is why we must-we must!-break away from it. I'm going to college soon, and well, I believe that I must do something-to use my skills once I get out of college to benefit the radical Left movement.

Which is why I plan to major in history-and use it to my advantage. To educate people about what Communism is and what went wrong in the world Communist movement of the 20th century.

But we mustn't repeat the stupid mistakes of the past- a one party system, total nationalization of industry that soon is taken under the wing of a few uncaring, greedy bureaucrats, and so forth.

We must do better next time.

[mother]

I'm wth you up to a point... I am just not sure past that point we will be on the same road yet. I will keep reading and maybe I'll find a place, or maybe I'll have to get creative I guess. I'm still reading threads here as well. I would like to hear some Anarchists at some point but there seems to be a smaller population of them, of course this threads ebeen here all of one day. I do look forward to more interaction but I suppose I need to be more versed and figure some personal thoughts out first.

[The Jay]

Why'd you choose the name mother?