Do you support the Soviet Union?

[Revolution starts with U]

But you have not addressed the specific problem which the poster raised, which was an accurate description of the problem which the USSR faced.
What does a nascent socialist community do when under siege by capitalists? Hope for the best? The anarchists of Spain or Zapastitas did not.

War communism




...

High production levels and open access to state of the art defensive weaponry will go far in helping the population defend itself.

The only trouble is that war breeds leaders. So how do we avoid "war communism" and other "dictators?" It's a good question. This phenomenon is common in both military history and history in general.
That's another argument, one both sides have to face. We do have evidence of succesful non/limited-authoritarian armies tho. It seems to rely upon the weight of power between the non-military population and the military.

[GatesofLenin]

Ok then,how about some quotes and real proof now,eh?

Not to mention the unfounded purges that nearly cost the USSR againgst Nazi Germany. How about nationalizing the banks? Did the USSR do that?

[Baseball]

And I know what you mean. "How is classism not like racism," correct? Its a good point... that is, if you set aside the fact that we're all here to absolve both the class and race distinction.

I have been deceived! I have seen all the talk about the proleteriats and workers and concluded = good. capitalist and the rich = bad.

What do you mean by authority?

Personally directs production? Coordinates autonomous workers?

Yes. That is their job

[RGacky3]

I have been deceived! I have seen all the talk about the proleteriats and workers and concluded = good. capitalist and the rich = bad.

You hav'nt seen that anywhere, we are against power structures and insitutions of power, not people.

[Revolution starts with U]

]I have been deceived! I have seen all the talk about the proleteriats and workers and concluded = good. capitalist and the rich = bad.

As was said by a wise man: we didn't start the fire.
The point is we want to rid the world of the class distinction.

Yes. That is their job

So central planning is good, as long as the central planner isn't a politician? (You do know I baited you into that, correct?)

[ComradeMan]

What is the point of saying you "support" something that no longer exists and was, historically speaking, a massive failure?

[Comrade Hill]

What is the point of saying you "support" something that no longer exists and was, historically speaking, a massive failure?

Not everyone measures ideologies in terms of their "overall historical impact." It is a very generalized way to go about things.

Saying that something failed, so you won't support it, is 2 dimensional logic. You are completely ignoring the reasons why it failed, and the good things that came out of it.

[RGacky3]

You are completely ignoring the reasons why it failed, and the good things that came out of it.

The same could be said about Nazi Germany.

[ComradeMan]

Not everyone measures ideologies in terms of their "overall historical impact." It is a very generalized way to go about things.

Saying that something failed, so you won't support it, is 2 dimensional logic. You are completely ignoring the reasons why it failed, and the good things that came out of it.

So you'd condone a medicine that failed its clinical trial?

[Comrade Hill]

So you'd condone a medicine that failed its clinical trial?

Only if the entire medicine is scientifically flawed.

Condoning it without looking at the details is in fact, 2 dimensional logic.

[Baseball]

So central planning is good, as long as the central planner isn't a politician? (You do know I baited you into that, correct?)

I am not quite sure why a socialist system would think that an elected politician has, by definition, skills relating to directing and coordination of people.

I am also not clear why workers at the actual job site, in a socialist system, would be expected to work as they wish.

[Revolution starts with U]

I don't think it's clear how capitalists have solved that problem either; see, The History of Capitalism

[Baseball]

I don't think it's clear how capitalists have solved that problem either; see, The History of Capitalism

One might as well complain that capitalism hasn't "solved" heat waves or earthquakes.

[Revolution starts with U]

So then you agree that bosses are shit in capitalism and socialism?

Good. I'm glad we're on the same page

[RGacky3]

One might as well complain that capitalism hasn't "solved" heat waves or earthquakes.

Except the problems we point out in Capitalism and the inherent problems in capitalism are UNIQUE to capitalism.

[The Idler]

I see a lot of Soviet imagery here in this forum.

I have a simple question. Do you know what that symbol means to actual Russian people? It is a symbol of the worst period of our history.

It represents the ideology that destroyed Russia economically, imprisoned millions of Russians and killed millions more. And that's not counting the numbers that died in Soviet wars.

Do you just use it because it looks cool to you? Because I really don't see any difference between the hammer and sickle and the swastika.

I'm not asking whether you support communism or not. I'm asking if you think it's cool to spit on the memory of the millions of Russians killed by the hammer and sickle.

Is it too late to post some Vonnegut?

Drawn crudely in the dust of three window-panes were a swastika, a hammer and sickle, and the Stars and Stripes. I had drawn the three symbols weeks before, at the conclusion of an argument about patriotism with Kraft. I had given a hearty cheer for each symbol, demonstrating to Kraft the meaning of patriotism to, respectively, a Nazi, a Communist, and an American. "Hooray, hooray, hooray," I'd said.

[homegrown terror]

Go shove a hammer up your ass.

why not, i've already got a sickle up there

Why do you think eastern Europe and Russia are poor? Because they're still recovering from the damage that communism did to them. The stupid, inefficient bureaucratic clusterfuck that was the Soviet Union, did that to them.

could it not also be that they're recovering from the sanctions and embargoes placed upon them by the capitalist west?

There's a reason we have a saying. "Russia is a very rich country. They've been robbing her for 70 years and still haven't stolen everything."

yeah, because folksy sayings are well-known for their technical veracity. oh guess what. yesterday it rained while the sun was still shining, guess we need to send the cops to hell on a domestic abuse call (shit, that doesn't sound like a bad idea)

And the USSR wasn't an isolated example. Care to explain why North Korea is such a shithole compared to capitalist South Korea?

because blizzard wasn't allowed to send them any copies of Starcraft, so they had to waste a LOT of money buying copies on the black market

[homegrown terror]

No one said I believe that 100 million (simple addition) died. However, millions did die.

In a nutshell, communism teaches that workers should own the means of production and so divide all of the benefit received from their labor among themselves, instead of supporting higher ups who essentially do nothing.

In practice, the Government owns everything (not the worker), and the worker's labor supports almost everyone but himself. The worker, not happy with working for virtually nothing, doesn't give it his all. He steals things from the collective farms, breaks tools, takes auto parts off of government trucks.

Basically, in practice, communism takes what I earn and gives it to others who didn't earn it. That's exactly what socialism does, too.

hey senator mccarthy, tell us more about how communism and socialism are the same thing!

[stern l.]

could it not also be that they're recovering from the sanctions and embargoes placed upon them by the capitalist west?

Oh noes, 2/5 of the world land mass!
Being sanctioned by Nato!
Like India, China, Iran, Pakistan, Mongolia, etc didn't even existed!
Like continental Europe didn't bought russian oil and gas anyway!
Like this wasn't only an excuse to keep idealizing Soviet Union!

[tradeunionsupporter]

The Soviet Union had a more moral system compared to America.