Do you support the Soviet Union?

[ProudRussian]

Calling people leftist scum and saying that people deserve the gulag is trolling, and saying google it yourself is not a convincing argument. YOU made the statement so YOU should find a way to back it up.

Can you not read? I have a source open right now. Let me spell it out for you. I. CANNOT. POST. IT. My post count isn't high enough, why is it so motherfucking hard to just search for a good 3 seconds yourself?

[Che a chara]

Why not wiggle those fat little fingers and google it yourself?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fox+%27news%27

[The Jay]

Can you not read? I have a source open right now. Let me spell it out for you. I. CANNOT. POST. IT. My post count isn't high enough, why is it so motherfucking hard to just search for a good 3 seconds yourself?

I could easily, but I can't debunk what you're looking at if I don't know what you're reading. Put (dot) in there and post it moron.

[DeBon]

Obvious troll is obvious. Probably best people stop posting in this thread.

[SHORAS]

Worse than Czarism?

I find it interesting you should say that. I will freely admit I know next to nothing about Czarism but the Soviet era saw millions upon millions killed, starved, tortured, imprisoned a horrific world war and so on...why would you flippantly (in my opinion) compare it with another terrible era? As if one might be slightly less worse than the other. What's the point?

[ProudRussian]

I'm not laughing at mass murder, I'm laughing at your stupidity which you have proved yet again by not refuting what I said. Do you honestly think that many died? That's not even the official lie. Could you please tell us, what exactly you think Communism is/teaches?

No one said I believe that 100 million (simple addition) died. However, millions did die.

In a nutshell, communism teaches that workers should own the means of production and so divide all of the benefit received from their labor among themselves, instead of supporting higher ups who essentially do nothing.

In practice, the Government owns everything (not the worker), and the worker's labor supports almost everyone but himself. The worker, not happy with working for virtually nothing, doesn't give it his all. He steals things from the collective farms, breaks tools, takes auto parts off of government trucks.

Basically, in practice, communism takes what I earn and gives it to others who didn't earn it. That's exactly what socialism does, too.

[The Jay]

I find it interesting you should say that. I will freely admit I know next to nothing about Czarism but the Soviet era saw millions upon millions killed, starved, tortured, imprisoned a horrific world war and so on...why would you flippantly (in my opinion) compare it with another terrible era? As if one might be slightly less worse than the other. What's the point?

Did you just blame the ussr for ww2? I suppose that its the usa's fault too and that all the american deaths in the war were the usa's fault and should be counted as atrocities. Sry for pickin at you but I don't like exaggeration.

[ProudRussian]

I could easily, but I can't debunk what you're looking at if I don't know what you're reading. Put (dot) in there and post it moron.

Here's one:

hawaii(dot)edu/powerkills/POWER.ART.HTM

[Che a chara]

No one said I believe that 100 million (simple addition) died. However, millions did die.

In a nutshell, communism teaches that workers should own the means of production and so divide all of the benefit received from their labor among themselves, instead of supporting higher ups who essentially do nothing.

In practice, the Government owns everything (not the worker), and the worker's labor supports almost everyone but himself. The worker, not happy with working for virtually nothing, doesn't give it his all. He steals things from the collective farms, breaks tools, takes auto parts off of government trucks.

Basically, in practice, communism takes what I earn and gives it to others who didn't earn it. That's exactly what socialism does, too.

http://bit.ly/rg7BDu

[SHORAS]

In practice, the Government owns everything (not the worker), and the worker's labor supports almost everyone but himself. The worker, not happy with working for virtually nothing, doesn't give it his all. He steals things from the collective farms, breaks tools, takes auto parts off of government trucks.

Basically, in practice, communism takes what I earn and gives it to others who didn't earn it. That's exactly what socialism does, too.

Hi ProudRussian, I agree in the so-called Communist/Socialist countries the state was like one big boss and owner. But I disagree about your reasons why workers acted in certain ways under these regimes. Workers could see others who had privileges while also having no control over their own lives, being controlled in so many different ways etc If workers do get what they need and want have control over their lives and their community, are not forced or controlled then the nature of labour and relations will change for the better. Who would blame workers disrupting a society that exploits them and degrades them (and rebelling in any little or big way they can)?

[ProudRussian]

>Can't think of anything
>insult arguer

Why does this tell me more about leftists than a lifetime of reading ideology would?

[Engel]

But yeah I support the USSR. Compared to the exploitation and poverty that you find in Russia today, the Soviet Union was economic powerhouse

[The Jay]

Here's one:

hawaii(dot)edu/powerkills/POWER.ART.HTM

The most such killing was done by the Soviet Union (near 62,000,000 people)

The major and better known episodes and institutions for which these and other regimes were responsible are listed in Table 3. Far above all is

gulag--the Soviet slave-labor system created by Lenin and built up under Stalin. In some 70 years it likely chewed up almost 40,000,000 lives, over twice as many as probably died in some 400 years of the African slave trade, from capture to sale in an Arab, Oriental, or New World market.

http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atl...ion/russia.htm

How exactly did 62 or 40 million people die and the population kept climbing? What was the birth rate, 25 per couple?

[ProudRussian]

How exactly did 62 or 40 million people die and the population kept climbing? What was the birth rate, 25 per couple?

Does that chart take into account the addition of new territories to the USSR? I would assume that the population of annexed territories would also be counted as Soviet.

[Zealot]

Can you not read? I have a source open right now. Let me spell it out for you. I. CANNOT. POST. IT. My post count isn't high enough, why is it so motherfucking hard to just search for a good 3 seconds yourself?

Your source is probably the so-called "Black Book Of Communism". Please, I've studied this stuff before, you really think I haven't "googled" this? I'm not denying people died, but your numbers are so exaggerated to the point that it's embarrassing having to reply to this nonsense. Because, like I said, that's not even the official lie and most of it was famines and war.

[Geiseric]

To be honest there are a bunch of fucking retards on this forum, however nobody should ever be free to oppress another human being. And that is what happened in the USSR and in Modern russia, as in every single other country controlled by capitalists. Genocides are obviously terrible, however assuming that the tsars or the whites wouldn't have and didn't kill every revolutionary they came by is wrong. Russia had a history of violence, but most of it was due to the imperialists and the need to keep any hope for the revolution going. Not to keep stalinism going, but to keep the struggle against capitalism alive. i'd argue that people who think the USSR was socialist are a 1:9 ratio at the very least on the forum, if you actually want to learn about why nationalism is just another form of enslavement, if you want to learn why the world is so screwed up i'd enccourage you to stay. However, these kinds of threads are lightning rods for Stalinists.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Middle class Americans who idolize fucking Stalin of all people tell someone actually from Russia that they are stupid and an extreme nationalist for not being a fan of one of the most brutal despots of the 20th century. Yo Stalinoids, come at me bros.

[The Jay]

Most land acquisition of the ussr seems to be before 1950, and given the 10 million drop from the cited article between 1940 and 1950 being the only drop since the first world war. One may infer that even 40 million killed is pretty ridiculous. I can find sources for the join dates if you want.

[SHORAS]

Did you just blame the ussr for ww2? I suppose that its the usa's fault too and that all the american deaths in the war were the usa's fault and should be counted as atrocities. Sry for pickin at you but I don't like exaggeration.

No comrade I don't mind you questioning what I say in fact I welcome it as all communists should. I thought the main point the OP was getting at was the horrific period of the fSU in its totality which included the barbarous Second World War. I attached no blame to any state or any factors at all just that it simply occurred and is perhaps one of the substantial reasons for the OP's general attitude to the fSU - and other peoples, especially in that region of the world. People do not want to live through this (again), memories are relatively fresh even though older generations are passing. The question of WW2 is a different topic and will only derail the thread. I am certain there are other threads on it.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Statistics given by anti-communists about the number of people who starved to death under his rule or were sent to Gulags are usually very exagerated, but that doesn't excuse the very real crimes against humanity he did commit.