America's silent crisis...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Please find an experienced acupuncturist, trained in China or Taiwan, and give it a try.

Relief can be immediate, if not complete.

Sorry that you are hurting.

If I was in pain, the very last thing I would want is some fucking quack sticking needles in me.

[Robert]

Studies in the early 1980s found that acupuncture works in part by stimulating the release of endorphins, the body's natural feel-good chemicals, much like vigorous exercise does. Now, a growing body of research suggests that it may have several mechanisms of action. Those include stimulating blood flow and tissue repair at the needle sites and sending nerve signals to the brain that regulate the perception of pain and reboot the autonomic nervous system, which governs unconscious functions such as heart beat, respiration and digestion, according to Alejandro Elorriaga, director of the medical acupuncture program at McMaster University in Ontario, which teaches a contemporary version to physicians.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...667749264.html

Acupuncture can help relieve pain in some circumstances. Sometimes it helps, sometimes not. Kind of like conventional western medicine.

[kapitalyst]

Please find an experienced acupuncturist, trained in China or Taiwan, and give it a try.

Relief can be immediate, if not complete.

Sorry that you are hurting.

I believe you that it worked for you. But there's a few issues here... For one, there's not such a place anywhere near where I live... maybe there will be after I move. But I already live in the middle of nowhere, and it takes an hour just to get to a civilized town (and there ain't no acupunturist there). Second, I hate needles with a passion... maybe it's because I stepped on one when I was two and it impaled my little foot, but I've always hated 'em. I suppose I could get over it though. But most importantly... the whole problem here is that the degree of damage is beyond what my body can naturally overcome. That's why aggressive pain management became a necessity in the first place. Chiropractic and massage do the same thing you've said acupuncture is supposed to do, but neither is enough to get me walking on its own. Nor was my first round of physical therapy. It does sound like something to try for improving my general well-being though. If it helps with tension, inflammation, soreness, etc then that's a major pro imho. Any little bit of improvement helps me.

[Robert]

I understand.

Two things, then I'll leave it alone: 1) the standard acupuncture needles they are talking about are very, very fine. Smaller than sewing needles. You can barely feel anything as they go in. 2) the thing that intrigued me about your case is the "knotting" of muscle tissue.

My guy explains, or claims anyway, that knotted muscle tissue is "scarred," like skin. Scarring can impinge nerves in some kind of way that I don't understand and maybe he really doesn't either. Plus his English isn't the best.

The one time he relieved me from severe, acute agony, he took a much, much longer needle than standard (longer and thicker than a sewing needle), and jammed it right into the point where it hurt the most. This treatment had nothing to do, I don't think, with endorphin triggering.

It hurt a lot, as he warned me it would, but I didn't care. The only other option was the emergency room and a lot of tests and then (I could see it coming), maybe some anti-spasmodics and anti-inflammatories. I was desperate for immediate relief.

15 minutes later, I was dancing around that clinic, completely relieved. He also rubbed a kind of smoking incense into the spot afterwards. (Noxion: "I told you they were quacks.")

The incense was probably just to treat the skin where the nail went in. The needle, I mean.

[Revolution starts with U]

And what state is this, might I ask?

Ohio

I don't deny there are real "pill mills". They just busted up one in Florida... the owner of this one, little clinic had a collection of Ferraris, Mercedes, Porsche and other fine cars, a yacht, two "vacation homes" and a mansion. He was writing illegitimate Rx's for non-existent people, then passing the pills on to dealers and collecting his "dividend" payments. But without the strict prohibition of drugs and over-regulation of pain management, there would be no market for this sort of thing.

They have busted 5 in the last 6months. In one of them there was just a stack of already filled out prescription slips.

I know a couple people who got fucked up on drugs, and even opioids. My brother, actually, got addicted and has recently recovered. This is, however, a small segment of the US population. However, the drugs are gaining street popularity and becoming somewhat of a "street fad", just like ecstasy in the 90s. Just like the so-called "ecstasy epidemic", it corresponds precisely to government "crackdowns" and rising drug prices. If you want to make a drug popular on the streets, ramp up enforcement and do a "crackdown".

I agree with you that government crack down exacerbates the problem; consider the crackdown on Oxycontin leading direcltly to an explosion in heroin use.
But you are out of your mind, and a dismissive self-righteous asshole, to deny that opiate abuse a serious problem in this country.

Again, I don't deny addiction is a problem.
It most certainly is. It is a very exaggerated problem, however.

I'm gona exacerbate your face!
No but seriously dude, your gona piss my ego off if you just keep dismissing the deaths of my best of friends as insignificant.

The impact is biggest in lower-class neighborhoods and inner cities... no surprise to me when the profit potential for pushing the drugs is huge and people are hungry for money... they're poor. The biggest problem, however, is the under-treatment and even outright lack of treatment for people who legitimately need these drugs. I've already watched two family members die an agonizing death while doctors looked on with stoic faces -- and outright refused to give them pain relief.

Again, if you are in sever pain, like yourself, or especially on your deathbed, i have no problem with it. But for you to say that vicoden is "too weak" for a toothache is just encouraging young kids to treat any little problem they have with drugs.
You have a fucking toothache... deal with it.

Your body and your pain is not a way to measure that of other people, my friend.

Ya, bein a redhead does have its advantages (I once read a study, and Im not quick to believe this stuff, that said redheads have a higher pain tolerance)

Of course drugs can ruin someone's life. Didn't say they couldn't. I'm an advocate for sufficient treatment of pain and sensible drug policy... I'm not a drug use or addiction advocate.

I would disagree since you think vicoden is "too weak for a toothache." You are an advocate for drug abuse. Your situation is different, but a toothache does not need a fucking vicoden.

I think Ibuprofen working for you is nothing short of a miracle. Ibuprofen is an NSAID, primarily intended to treat inflammation and pain caused by it. It's effective for minor cases of arthritis, sprains, joint pain, muscle aches, etc. It can be of some use to treat the inflammation caused by things such as a broken bone. But it's not a cure-all pain reliever... it's for light pain related to inflammation. It won't even relieve a mild headache for me -- I have to take Tylenol (acetaminophen). I don't think it really helped your burns, and likely did you no good for your over-sized filling or kidney stone... it probably had more to do with high pain tolerance and placebo. And even you say the whole time you were in serious pain.

Being an anti-inflammatory it probably stopped the inflamation of my tooth by the too-big filling, and the inflamation of my kidney passages (dont kno the technical term lol) by the stone stuck in the middle of them. It doesn't work on headaches for me either... but then again neither does tylenol.
The burns it didn't, I tried tylenol 3 too and that didn't work either. I just lived with it until it went away, and then I was fine. Who knows where I would be if I would have listened to the doc when he wanted to give me vicoden.

What?!

No, I can't function... I would never have taken any opiates if I could have gotten by through another means. Once I turned 17, my quality of life began to fall off a cliff. I was miserable 24/7. I tried everything... every non-narcotic, physical therapy and chiropractic, stretching, praying, meditation, healthy eating, applying heat/ice, massage therapy, homeopathic "remedies" (which I now know are nonsense), you name it... I was spending my life in two places: bed and my sofa. My mother had to care for me like a nursing home patient. No going out with friends to have a good time, no vacations, not even a trip to the store. My doctor and I exhausted every effort before opiates were ever tried.

Well, my apologies. But I have been saying this whole time I have no problem with its use for serious issues.
But using it for a toothache is advocating addiction.

There is a problem... again, I don't deny it. But calling it "massive" or "epidemic" is sensationalism.

More people die in Ohio from accidental drug poisoning than car accidents; it is the number one cause of death in this state. Stop dismissing the deaths of my closest friends and family as "insiginificant" and "sensationalism." Ive never called the problems of chronic pain sufferers insignificant, even if I think a large chunk of them are faking it (and probably don't even know it).

The problem for the vast majority of Americans involved in this situation is gross and neglectful under-treatment of all pain. It's despicable that someone like my grandmother had to die a miserable, painful death from cancer because of this drug hysteria and paranoia.

The vast majority of americans are not in chronic pain. So.. no.. that is the problem for the vast majority of chronic pain sufferers.

No, most people don't need opiates. Of course not. But most of the people who do are getting none or far too little, and they are miserable. That is the whole point here...

You think people need vicoden for a toothache, so forgive me if I don't follow your definition of who needs opiates.

You're speaking from your personal experience, so I'll speak from mine... I know and have been acquainted with several thousand people in my life. About twenty are on opioids... only two, I think, probably shouldn't be on them. And every one of the ones who are legitimately taking opioids are also under-treated and abused by the system.

I would like to meet these people. I will bet a couple hundred of them are on opiates and you just don't know it. 18 of those 20 probably shouldn't be. You think vicoden is appropriate for a toothache, so again, forgive me if I don't think you have clear picture on who needs opiates or not.

Well, it sounds like you've been hanging out in a clique of opiate abusers... who know the other local drug abusers. So I think your anecdotal accounts are very skewed by the subculture you've been in (you said, I think, that you're recovering from addiction).

No, I have always avoided it. Even the many many many times I've been to the doctors, and everytime they were super quick to want to prescribe me vics, I refused them.
How these doctors are treating opiates is like me being like "dude, you're havin a bad day? Wana try some crack?"

Yes, if you have a lot of friends who are addicts they do need help. Help is hard to get (especially good help) in our paranoid nation. The state doesn't want to help your friends... they'd rather them be in prison. And the fact is, your friends are finding the drugs and abusing them... so what has prohibition and insane over-regulation done in fighting addiction? NOTHING. It's only hurting people who legitimately need the drugs and don't want to break the law.

Im arguing against your treatment of opiates as something not seriously dangerous. I will never support prohibition. Drugs are a medical, not a criminal Issue. Treating them as crime is punishing someone for a crime you think they might commit. (Supposedly a lot of drug addicts committ crime like theft and violence. This is not true. The majority of drug addicts work full-time jobs.)

How exactly did Ibuprofen work fine if your pain was that severe -- that you couldn't "add 2 + 2"? Sounds to me like you were absolutely miserable and now you're looking at it through the rose tint of hindsight.

Can't think straight. Take some Ibuprofen and sit and quietly pay attention to something else. Next thing you know, the pain is so insignificant you can function again. It will come back, and then you can take another. There is no reason you have to get rid of "all of the pain."

I would choose it for the severity and the chronic nature. If I had to choose between spending a week with:

A) dental pain, broken arm and a third degree burn
B) my chronic pain

No, you wouldn't. You would choose a over b because b will go away, a will not. They are both just as severe.

Again, Vicodin? That's one of the weakest opioids available. You're not going to die from taking it correctly.

You can become addicted, especially if you start taking opiates for minor pains every time you have a minor pain.

If you took too many it wouldn't even be the hydrocodone that killed you... you'd overdose and die first from the acetaminophen (Tylenol) in the pills, because it would shut down your liver and kidneys. Some have even questioned the reason they put the acetaminophen in those things... because if you need it, you could take a Tylenol with the opiate and get the same effect. It seems like the intent is to kill (or make very ill) anyone who tries to "get high" off the Vicodin... really fucked up...

It is fucked up, eh? You know what would be a good solution? Get doctors to stop prescribing opiates for every little bit of minor pain someone has, like a toothache.

I have, however, known far too many people who have needlessly suffered from under-treatment of pain. That was a major contributing factor in the premature deaths of both my grandparents. Too much pain, especially when the body is weak from injury or illness, can cause shock, weaken the immune system and contribute to or directly cause death. My grandmother had breast cancer and had a good chance of survival. But they refused to give her anything but tiny doses of morphine orally (morphine is extremely weak orally). She moaned and screamed and cried, and even told the doctors that her dosage of morphine was so low that two Lortab did a better job (she was right...morphine's bioavailability orally is pathetic, and it was only 20mg every 6 hours). They didn't want to hear it -- they had to "protect" her from addiction. The pain got really bad, and she went into shock... she had seizures as a result, and slipped into a coma and died. The coroner and the doctors said "her pain was just too bad, causing shock, and she was weak and couldn't handle it". My grandfather's death, though it was inevitable, was accelerated by similar causes. A friend of mine got into a horrible car accident when he was 17. He was still conscious when they picked him up, and they brought him to our local hospital -- notorious for neglect and under-treatment. They gave him good odds of living. He had some broken bones, tissue damage, serious trauma, etc... but he was expected to live. But they wouldn't treat his pain, despite his screaming and pleading. They would give him a baby's dosage of hydrocodone every 12 hours. The stress lead to shock, and he also slipped into a coma and died. I know two other car accident victims who died of virtually identical causes and should have survived. Another friend of mine got into the worst car accident I've ever seen... I've never seen a human being so twisted and shredded before. That hospital treated him the same way, and he was on the brink of death... they even encouraged the family to "pull the plug". They knew better, however, and had him med-evaced to the hospital in New Orleans. They immediately put him on an adequate dosage of morphine and oxycodone for discomfort/breakthrough pain. He returned to full consciousness in three days and his immune system beat the infection that had set in within a week. They also gave him compassionate physical therapy and pain management throughout his long recovery. Today he is in great health, and walks, works and lives like a normal person.

Im sorry for your loss and happy to hear about your gain. Again, I have no problem with their use for the most severe of cases.
Opiates for minor pains people could just live through, or take something weaker and live through it, I just simply will not support.

I also know the story of a little boy who was born with severe back trouble, sort of like me. By age 6 he was in a wheelchair, and couldn't attend school. They put him on low dosage of Oxycontin. He was able to walk again, with limitations, and return to school. He has grown up and had a whole new lease on life. He should be in his first year of college now.

Do you know him now? Do you know whether or not he is now an addict? I hope he is not.

The moral of the story is that these drugs can save lives and be a miracle for the people who need them. And for the people who don't... we're failing at stopping them from obtaining them (in fact, we're making it easier on the streets) through prohibition and draconian over-regulation. We need education, sensible policies and widely available help and treatment... not more police, "crackdowns", stricter regulations and more nonsense.

I agree with all of this. But I would also add that they "can also only appear to be a miracle for a short time, until the user becomes a drug addict and ruins their lives."

I'm deeply sorry for your loss. But I hope you realize that the draconian, authoritative approach to drug addiction (which I agree is a problem) only makes matters worse. Not only for the addicts who need help, but the legitimate patients whose lives can be restored by opioid therapy and compassionate treatment. The more they try to "crackdown", the higher the prices get and the more the drugs are pushed from the "pill mills" and dealers.

I don't know how many times I have to say I don't support prohibition. But your approach of treating opiates as something to be widely prescribed is just as bad, if not worse.
The situation is that they are handing out way too many opiates to people who don't need them, and this is probably causing them to hand out not enough of them to the people that do.
But what do you think the medical and pharma industries are more interested in: saving lives or making money?

Again, Im not a recovering addict. I tried Oxy once and never touched an opiate again. I don't know where you got the idea I was

[kapitalyst]

Ohio

They have busted 5 in the last 6months. In one of them there was just a stack of already filled out prescription slips.

Ahhhh, Ohio! Where the "Operation Oxyfest" and "War on Oxy" began. Yes, Ohio has a high rate of abuse. And I don't consider it coincidence... not at all. Ohio is one of the strictest states in the nation now, and has one of the biggest addiction problems. Most of the drugs on your streets are coming from other states and Mexico. I saw this on TV the other day.

I agree with you that government crack down exacerbates the problem; consider the crackdown on Oxycontin leading direcltly to an explosion in heroin use.

Consider Ohio's "Operation Oxyfest" and "War on Oxy". Turned a drug subculture into a street fad.

But you are out of your mind, and a dismissive self-righteous asshole, to deny that opiate abuse a serious problem in this country.

It is a serious problem. Even if there's just one person in the whole world addicted to any drug, it's a serious problem. I never said it wasn't. I only refute the false claim that everyone is doing it and that it's an "epidemic". There's a fad going on, just like with ecstasy in the 90s and early 2000s.

I've thus far enjoyed talking with you in every thread... so I hope the above comment is not indicative of your true character.

No but seriously dude, your gona piss my ego off if you just keep dismissing the deaths of my best of friends as insignificant.

I most certainly did not dismiss anyone's death as "insignificant". That is very significant, especially to those who loved them. You're obviously not getting what I'm saying...

Again, if you are in sever pain, like yourself, or especially on your deathbed, i have no problem with it. But for you to say that vicoden is "too weak" for a toothache is just encouraging young kids to treat any little problem they have with drugs.

Again, you're not understanding... There's a difference between a minor, tolerable toothache and one that's so bad you're shaking and vomiting. There's also a range of pain intensity between that. I don't think Vicodin is for every little ache and pain one gets. For everyday pain you either rest and deal with it or take an OTC medication. But there's no reason not to prescribe the appropriate dosage of opiates to someone who is suffering from acute or chronic pain. That's what it's for.

You have a fucking toothache... deal with it.

And I'd agree if the person seems to have an ordinary toothache and aren't in distress. But when someone is crying their eyes out and can't eat or drink? No, that's cruel.

I would disagree since you think vicoden is "too weak for a toothache." You are an advocate for drug abuse. Your situation is different, but a toothache does not need a fucking vicoden.

Not all toothaches are created equal. I wish you could see where I'm coming from...

More people die in Ohio from accidental drug poisoning than car accidents; it is the number one cause of death in this state. Stop dismissing the deaths of my closest friends and family as "insiginificant" and "sensationalism." Ive never called the problems of chronic pain sufferers insignificant, even if I think a large chunk of them are faking it (and probably don't even know it).

Where are these actual statistics from Ohio? And it should be noted that "drug poisoning" is very vague...

I have no idea why you think I called the death of anyone "insignificant" or "sensationalism", because that's not at all the case. I've called media hype and yellow journalism, public paranoia, govt. propaganda and completely false exaggerations that.

The vast majority of americans are not in chronic pain. So.. no.. that is the problem for the vast majority of chronic pain sufferers.

And I didn't say that either... I said "the vast majority of Americans involved in this situation"... not "the vast majority of all Americans".

You think people need vicoden for a toothache, so forgive me if I don't follow your definition of who needs opiates.

Most don't. Some do. It has to be considered on a case by case basis.

I would like to meet these people. I will bet a couple hundred of them are on opiates and you just don't know it. 18 of those 20 probably shouldn't be. You think vicoden is appropriate for a toothache, so again, forgive me if I don't think you have clear picture on who needs opiates or not.

Well, that is a bet you'd lose. I can guarantee it.

Actually, I have a very good idea of what's appropriate for the use of opiates. You just don't have a clear picture of what I've actually said/meant.

No, I have always avoided it. Even the many many many times I've been to the doctors, and everytime they were super quick to want to prescribe me vics, I refused them.

If you didn't need/want it, then that's awesome.

How these doctors are treating opiates is like me being like "dude, you're havin a bad day? Wana try some crack?"

In actuality, it's more like this: "Dude, you got shot? Just go home and exercise. Take some Tylenol. It'll go away in a year or two."

Im arguing against your treatment of opiates as something not seriously dangerous. I will never support prohibition. Drugs are a medical, not a criminal Issue. Treating them as crime is punishing someone for a crime you think they might commit. (Supposedly a lot of drug addicts committ crime like theft and violence. This is not true. The majority of drug addicts work full-time jobs.)

Opiates really aren't "incredibly dangerous". Just like almost everything, they carry risks. They also have benefits. Opiates should be used when the benefits justify the risk.

Can't think straight. Take some Ibuprofen and sit and quietly pay attention to something else. Next thing you know, the pain is so insignificant you can function again. It will come back, and then you can take another. There is no reason you have to get rid of "all of the pain."

You can't ever get rid of all of the pain. There's no such thing as a magical pill. What you're describing is great if it works for you. But that doesn't work for everyone, and certainly not in cases where pain is much worse.

No, you wouldn't. You would choose a over b because b will go away, a will not. They are both just as severe.

Yes, I certainly would. And I was talking about choosing between living with A or B for just one week, after which it would go away. I wouldn't hesitate. The choice between acute pain and a systemic breakdown of my entire body is quite clear to me. But you seem to be making the choice for me.

You can become addicted, especially if you start taking opiates for minor pains every time you have a minor pain.

Because that's not what opiates are for... that's abusing them, not taking them correctly.

It is fucked up, eh? You know what would be a good solution? Get doctors to stop prescribing opiates for every little bit of minor pain someone has, like a toothache.

They're already trying to stop doctors from prescribing altogether, and look where that's gotten us. We have two extremes: vast under-treatment and no treatment vs "pill mills" and black market. Now we have two problems.

No, what we need to do is let medical professionals do their jobs -- the one that they went to medical school for, and the DEA agents didn't.

Im sorry for your loss and happy to hear about your gain. Again, I have no problem with their use for the most severe of cases.
Opiates for minor pains people could just live through, or take something weaker and live through it, I just simply will not support.

Dude... I don't support using opiates for everyday aches and pains either.

Do you know him now? Do you know whether or not he is now an addict? I hope he is not.

Of course he's not an addict. He has no choice but to take the meds, and it's having a net positive effect on his life, not a negative one.

I agree with all of this. But I would also add that they "can also only appear to be a miracle for a short time, until the user becomes a drug addict and ruins their lives."

This is true.

I don't know how many times I have to say I don't support prohibition. But your approach of treating opiates as something to be widely prescribed is just as bad, if not worse.

That's not what I support. I support giving them to the people who need them. And I support the abolition of prohibition, and the handling of drug addiction in a sensible way.

The situation is that they are handing out way too many opiates to people who don't need them, and this is probably causing them to hand out not enough of them to the people that do.

Yes, and that's the fucked up thing... Addicts and dealers know how to "game the system" and get the drugs from the few sources available, and all the people in legitimate medical need cannot. Again, two extremes we're dealing with here.

But what do you think the medical and pharma industries are more interested in: saving lives or making money?

Both. Saving lives = making money. Killing people = lawsuits, jail, and losing money... unless you're the government.

Again, Im not a recovering addict. I tried Oxy once and never touched an opiate again. I don't know where you got the idea I was

I got the idea because you said you were going to one of those meetings. My mistake!

[Revolution starts with U]

I have to say I think we largely agree on this issue. It is, though, hard for me to get my ego out of the way on this issue as it is so close to me.

Ahhhh, Ohio! Where the "Operation Oxyfest" and "War on Oxy" began. Yes, Ohio has a high rate of abuse. And I don't consider it coincidence... not at all. Ohio is one of the strictest states in the nation now, and has one of the biggest addiction problems. Most of the drugs on your streets are coming from other states and Mexico. I saw this on TV the other day.



Consider Ohio's "Operation Oxyfest" and "War on Oxy". Turned a drug subculture into a street fad.

Trust me, I know. That was my position at the summit: that the status quo is not working, and we need less criminalization, more acceptance, and treatment of users and abusers as human beings. Surprisingly there was a nice bit of support from some of the leaders and audience on that position.

Short Side story: During the QA I stood up and asked if the criminilization of the drug issue had proved to be not only inneficient, but counterproductive. The Sherrif attempted to answer my question, and pointed out some problems dealing with how they legally have to treat prisoners. The Judge and the Social Worker both like poo-pooed my response and spent 5mins talking about marijuana and how they know a kid who quit smoking weed and got better grades in school. People kept telling me during the break how they were upset that my question didn't get answered.
But then I went to the session on prevention from a law enforcement perspective. The judge on this panel, a different judge, was talking about how we put way too many people in prison for far too long. And the general theme of the discussion was that the system is working against itself?
I was thinking to myself, how can these people know that the system is counterproductive, and yet still not admit it?

It is a serious problem. Even if there's just one person in the whole world addicted to any drug, it's a serious problem. I never said it wasn't. I only refute the false claim that everyone is doing it and that it's an "epidemic". There's a fad going on, just like with ecstasy in the 90s and early 2000s.

How far out of high school are you? Maybe it is just my area, but its almost everyone in the schools (or it was a few years ago, and from what everyone says not much different) and tons of parents, teachers, etc. There are a lot of people doing it here. I can only speak from experience and the data on Ohio. We worked our asses off for generations and were sold out and left with nothing but drugs to fill the hole.

I've thus far enjoyed talking with you in every thread... so I hope the above comment is not indicative of your true character.

We are the actions we take, regardless of any speech or thoughts involved.

I most certainly did not dismiss anyone's death as "insignificant". That is very significant, especially to those who loved them. You're obviously not getting what I'm saying...



Again, you're not understanding... There's a difference between a minor, tolerable toothache and one that's so bad you're shaking and vomiting. There's also a range of pain intensity between that. I don't think Vicodin is for every little ache and pain one gets. For everyday pain you either rest and deal with it or take an OTC medication. But there's no reason not to prescribe the appropriate dosage of opiates to someone who is suffering from acute or chronic pain. That's what it's for.

Yes, if you are vommitting from pain (thats not just withdrawl) you can use it. I really think this should be something doctors are far more careful in giving out. You obviously disagree.

And I'd agree if the person seems to have an ordinary toothache and aren't in distress. But when someone is crying their eyes out and can't eat or drink? No, that's cruel.

Hmm... its hard to distinguish between people actually in terrible pain, and just throwing a hissy fit to get what they want (drugs). This is not to dismiss the people with real pain. I feel for them, and realize I could never understand it without experiencing it. But many people clearly are, to me, just suffering from a lack of control, and their brain is tricking them into using pain as a tool for getting more drugs.
There is real pain out there, things that people cannot control. My friend's mother has a disease that is eating her bones out from the inside, she is in real pain. She's also a drug addict from being on morphine for a decade. When she cannot get her drugs, it is a terrible sight.
It's a dangerous substance. I am for its use. But I think it should be widely understood that if you use it, you are addicted. There is no if; only people who are strong enough to overcome it and those that are not.

Not all toothaches are created equal. I wish you could see where I'm coming from...



Where are these actual statistics from Ohio? And it should be noted that "drug poisoning" is very vague...

Just look up any random Ohio county opiate task forces.

I have no idea why you think I called the death of anyone "insignificant" or "sensationalism", because that's not at all the case. I've called media hype and yellow journalism, public paranoia, govt. propaganda and completely false exaggerations that.

Im really not interested in what the media has to say about it as they, as you said, really sensationalize it for personal gain. My "media" campaign is to get people to understand that addiction is a state of mind, some substances are more addictive than others, and some people are more strong than others. This is a serious issue and none of us seem to have been talking seriously about it.

Most don't. Some do. It has to be considered on a case by case basis.

I completely agree.

Well, that is a bet you'd lose. I can guarantee it.

Actually, I have a very good idea of what's appropriate for the use of opiates. You just don't have a clear picture of what I've actually said/meant.

I must not have.

If you didn't need/want it, then that's awesome.



In actuality, it's more like this: "Dude, you got shot? Just go home and exercise. Take some Tylenol. It'll go away in a year or two."

I would have to know the severity of the shooting to see whether or not I would recommend opiates. There is no reason you have to get rid of all of the pain, for a pain that will only be temporary. Take something that makes the pain bearable and deal with it. Life is tough, and the dangers of addiction high.
Most addicts are not junkies. Most addicts have full time jobs, and lead normal lives. They usually have dismissive attitudes like "I have control over it, those people were different" and often will give their children "just a little dose to calm them down."
I gaurantee you could walk into any random bar in the Valley and someone could get you some pills, if they don't already have them there.

Opiates really aren't "incredibly dangerous". Just like almost everything, they carry risks. They also have benefits. Opiates should be used when the benefits justify the risk.

Other than the bolded, I agree. They are incredibly dangerous.

You can't ever get rid of all of the pain. There's no such thing as a magical pill. What you're describing is great if it works for you. But that doesn't work for everyone, and certainly not in cases where pain is much worse.



Yes, I certainly would. And I was talking about choosing between living with A or B for just one week, after which it would go away. I wouldn't hesitate. The choice between acute pain and a systemic breakdown of my entire body is quite clear to me. But you seem to be making the choice for me.

Fair enough. I wouldn't choose dehiballitating pain either way but sometimes we have no such choice.

Because that's not what opiates are for... that's abusing them, not taking them correctly.

No, that's taking exactly as the bottle your doctor perscribed you. Its just that, you know it works. So the next time you have pain, your pavlovian reaction comes in and makes the pain a tad worse. Eventually, the doctors can find nothing wrong with you, other than that you are in pain. You're not a junkie so its obviously not withdrawl... right?
(By you, I do not mean you Kapitylist, I hope you know)

They're already trying to stop doctors from prescribing altogether, and look where that's gotten us. We have two extremes: vast under-treatment and no treatment vs "pill mills" and black market. Now we have two problems.

Pill mills are only a small part of the problem. The other part is the mom and pop distirbutor who gets a "script" and sells half of it, with the doctor never questioning how a person could eat so many pills so fast.
There are people who could use these and cannot get them, yes. But there are far more people using these drugs which do not need them. The answer to that is not to encourage doctors to hand out more pills.
We should be encouraging them to be smarter with their decisions. We also will solve nothing without a fundamental change in the structure and operations of the pharma and medical industry.

No, what we need to do is let medical professionals do their jobs -- the one that they went to medical school for, and the DEA agents didn't.

I sort-of agree with that. Except it was the doctors doing their jobs, the ones they went to med school for, that were just signing stacks of perscription slips. It is also doctors just doing their jobs they were trained for that do not question how a 100lb person eats a hundred pills a month and functions.

Dude... I don't support using opiates for everyday aches and pains either.



Of course he's not an addict. He has no choice but to take the meds, and it's having a net positive effect on his life, not a negative one.

Whether or not your life is a net positive (at the moment) or negative has no bearing on whether or not you are an addict. If you are taking the drugs, you are addicted.
Have you been in contact with him lately? He might be in more trouble than anyone suspects.

This is true.



That's not what I support. I support giving them to the people who need them. And I support the abolition of prohibition, and the handling of drug addiction in a sensible way.

Like I said, we largely agree on the issue. I just feel like you dismiss the addictiveness of them.

Yes, and that's the fucked up thing... Addicts and dealers know how to "game the system" and get the drugs from the few sources available, and all the people in legitimate medical need cannot. Again, two extremes we're dealing with here.



Both. Saving lives = making money. Killing people = lawsuits, jail, and losing money... unless you're the government.

Big Pharma isn't losing too much money out of all the killing and lawsuits they have to deal with.

I got the idea because you said you were going to one of those meetings. My mistake!

No prob Bob