Results 41 to 60 of 61
Take your appeals to emotion elsewhere. Being a slave owner is hard work too, keeping your slaves in line, going to the market buy slaves (investing in capital) and thereby taking risks, whipping them, etc.Right, right... the only way to become wealthy is blue blood, "exploiting" the workers or getting "lucky". I mean, what is it with me? How could I get "lucky" time and time again? How was I lucky enough to make sacrifices and sell everything I owned to raise a little trading capital? Lucky enough to do odd jobs for even more? And then after working my ass off and going hungry just to save $1000, how do I manage to get lucky every single day and maintain a success/failure ratio in my day trading of around 14:3? To generate returns of over 1000% in a few months time? Just luck, definitely... Working hard for something and sticking to it had nothing to do with it...
@ Bardo: Then I guess I'm an "economic freak" then...
Regardless of how hard you might work you are doing it at the expensive of your subjects, be it the slave or the worker.
It's not some isolated incident, Mr. I-LIKE-TO-TYPE-IN-ALL-CAPS-TO-REPRESENT-YELLING... Cool your jets, man. You're way to quick to get hostile/angry...
Hmmm.... Well, asset markets would collapse first... Debt markets second... And the FOREX market would go haywire. You would have a systemic, global financial meltdown. Business would grind to a screeching halt as the tap runs dry... everyone goes out of work... before long the entitlement checks stop coming.
This is like saying you could cut out the backbone of you horse and it would still run fine and win races. Or saying you don't need blood in your veins because it's actually your stomach that nourishes the body. It's easy to complain about how Goldman-Sachs doesn't produce any goods, but if it wasn't for their crucial role in the world marketplace (and others like them) there wouldn't be much producing going on...
I was foxing with ya... I thought it very crude that your what-if scenario involved all traders dying instead of just saying "if they all stopped trading". I guess I know what is planned as my ultimate fate when revolution comes. Bring it on!
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
No, real economy = "The part of the economy that is concerned with actually producing goods and services, as opposed to the part of the economy that is concerned with buying and selling on the financial markets."
(source: Financial Times Lexicon).
The reason why so many talk about third world countries is because it is a very good example on capitalism failure.
I do, i give away around hundred dollars every month to charity organisations like Unicef and red cross, and if it was a socialist economy in the world, i wouldnt need to give away money.
Who? Please tell me that... I don't have any workers.
Secondly, appeals to emotion? You've just perfectly described most leftist arguments. Even all of the Marxist terminology (like "wage slavery") is designed to appeal to emotion. We're constantly bombarded with nonsense about how we "exploit the worker", how we're "thieves", blah, blah, blah... It's all emotional ranting. None of it's even true. I don't own diamond mines in Uganda. I didn't build bridges on the bones of workers. I'm a 23-year-old individual trading and investing from my home office.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
Except the problem is that it's not because of capitalism. A dictator taking over a country and committing genocide is not capitalism. AIDs and HIV is not capitalism. Cultural and clan warfare between rival tribes, religious sects and political groups is not capitalism. You've come to view this, no offense, in a very irrational way. Socialism is never going to fix any of these things, and there are better ways to solve problems anyway.
I salute your effort, as I'm sure you're one of the very few who does a damn thing and practices what he/she preaches.
I hope you will, personally, become more prosperous and well-off, and able to donate more to noble causes. Your $100 does more for real people than the government does with $1M.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
Could you tell me in what category any of the supposed appeal to emotion fall?
1) Wage Slavery. Although I don't like the term personally, draws an analogy between the circumstances and similarities of and between slaves and wage labourers. (It is not Marxist terminology by the way). It comes closest to an appeal to emotion, but I still don't see how it qualifies as such.
2) Exploiting the Workers. It's not an appeal to emotion, it is a description of the relation between workers and capitalists, the workers create the wealth, the capitalist appropriates it. Whether this is accurate is another discussion, but it's definitely not an appeal to emotion.
And you are not representative of capitalism! We are discussing capitalism in general, not you. You personally didn't build bridges on the bones of workers, but the system you advocate certainly does.
You are a 23 year old trader who contributes nothing to society, and therefore have no earned the money you are making. The money you are trading is, what Marxists call, surplus value appropriated by capitalists brought into circulation through the stock exchange.
Hey guys awesome idea.
I'm gonna buy and sell tulips. I know I know, it sounds crazy, they aren't actually worth anything, but someone will pay right? We could base our whole economic system on them! It will last forever! No one will laugh at us in 400 years or anything AmIrite?
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
o the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me
yes, it is some isolated incident, your grandmas story, your moms story and yours is only that, if its not an isolated incident show me statistics, show me facts.
Just wanna make sure you read whats written.
Food producers would still grow food, commodity producers would still produce commodities, distribution systems would still distribute, assets of the bankers and financers would just be taken and used by the productive economy.
We would'nt need to borrow because the capital would not be controlled by the institutions any more.
All the CEOs go people can still take the means of production and produce and distribute and consumer.
The financial meltdown only happens because the financeers control the capital.
Doctors can still treat people, stores can stay open, plumbers can still fix pipes.
Its not the backbone of the economy at all, all it does is move around capital.
It is not because of capitalism itself, but because of multinational companies, that exploits third world countries. As a result the majority in those countries cannot live a descent life. When they dont have a descent life, they get desperate, and people can do everything when they are desperate.
No it doesnt. You have an irrational view on charity. Just because the government do somthing, it dont corrupt it and make it usless. Its just that the government dont give nearly enough.
And then they'll give you, the well if there wasn't a state, then we would all be more equal and the corporations wouldn't have their unfair loopholes that they have now. So in fact unregulated capitalism == equality.
“How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, shit, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?” Charles Bukowski, Factotum
"In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights' and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped." MLK
-fka Redbrother
If kapitalyst is such a brilliant trader and third-legged man-beast, why doesn't he take his show on the road? Surely such a successful and important person has something better to do than to go to the Internet's left ghetto and hurl tired Horatio Alger and von Misean arguments at people who take him for a crock, right?
Of course it doesn’t make sense, because it’s all about getting a return on your capital and expanding it, not providing a reasonable service, for a reasonable price. Why do you think there are so many predatory lenders in the ghettos of America? Because there’s profit to be made there, but it’s a very risky investment. To use your terminology you gotta “fuck em fast” and hard because they may not have anything left tomorrow given the tenuous nature of employment and their utter lack of assets.
I’m not saying you don’t have noble intentions or you haven’t worked hard to get where you are, but you have to think like a trader in order to be successful and that means minimizing risk when and where you can. If you want to use a slow bleed method, your best bet is opening up shop in a higher income area where the loans will be less risky and come at regular intervals.
It sounds so nice in concise, legal terms, but in reality it usually involves a court order and a police issued battering ram, both courtesy of the state you bemoan so much. In fact one of the most ingenious aspects of capitalism is the fact the state and the ruling class are separate, it allows capitalist ideologues to keep their hands clean while the state does all the dirty work and gets the blame.
But now we must pick up every piece
Of the life we used to love
Just to keep ourselves
At least enough to carry on
When those dictators get their funding from Exxon Mobile and the US Government, that's capitalism. When we can't get effective medical treatment to africans because it's not profitable, that's capitalism. When clans go to war to decide who is going to sell the bannanas to Dole, that's capitalism.
You don't know that, you suspect it. I don't have the money to give anymore, but I still put change in all the charity boxes and I am headed to an opiate treatment seminar this thursday.
And I have never been fed by the Red Cross. But I have been fed by foodstamps. My parents had payed the bills with unemployment (Ive been self-employed my whole life... and on that note, you can fuck off when you talk about taxes. Nobody gets taxed like the self-employed. Thanks Reagan.)
I salute the red crosses efforts, and donate when I can. But I personally have recieved nothing from them, and can personally thank the government for being where I am today; a college graduate, who didn't starve as a child'
Save a species, have ginger babies!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." ~Albert Einstein
I earned $50 but I beat up an old man to get it.
Stay Hungry.
But now we must pick up every piece
Of the life we used to love
Just to keep ourselves
At least enough to carry on
The vast majority of libertarians are not "anarcho capitalists". The latter only really exist on the internet, and I pretty much just ignore them.
In other words, most libertarians are more Cato Institute than they are Mises Institute.
No, the vast majority of libertarians fall quite easily for the false state/business tension. Read some Gabriel Kolko, Butler Schaffer and Kevin Carson (to name just a few...there are many more writers, especially if one dives into literature relating to imperialism) and then fire away. Then mention that "small business", darling of the anti-corporatist libertarians, frequently exercise their power through their city's Chamber of Commerce and restrict competition through zoning laws and other regulations. In other words, through the power of Leviathan.
Then you'll probably get into debates regarding "actual existing capitalism" and "actual existing socialism", and there's a good chance that it'll just devolve into a big longwinded bicker session. But arguing in the context of political economy and the state's involvement with creating and sustaining a suitable business environment is infinitely more fruitful than just saying "hurf durf surplus value dawg!" Unless you're a baller Marxian economist and can clearly elaborate on your views.
"Win, lose or draw...long as you squabble and you get down, that's gangsta."
I have recently been saying "You go to work and create $5 in value for the company. Your boss keeps $4 of that. Your government takes $.30. And you are left with $.70. Who's the taxman now?"
It seems fairly simple to me. Idk if it works tho. I thought "anyone with interest bearing investments should know a progressive tax IS a flat tax." But I had to argue that one a lot.
But this one seems even simpler and un-refutable. It can only be diverted to conversations on whether or not your boss deserves that money. And that is a much more fruitful conversation.
Save a species, have ginger babies!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." ~Albert Einstein
I suppose in the sense that nobody "earned" their genetics or any of their external influences, than nobody earns anything ever; it's all just luck.
We prefer to use the term *determinism* instead of "luck."Originally Posted by Judicator
