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the point is that capital is driving the earth, both socially and materially, to the fuckin ground
Formerly dada
[URL="https://gemeinwesen.wordpress.com/"species being[/URL] - A magazine of communist polemic
These are averages (means), not medians.
I think if an entrepreneur can create vast amounts of wealth entirely on his own, without the exploitation of labor he's not only a freak of economics but of nature as well. Right up there with the Flash and Superman.
Right, right... the only way to become wealthy is blue blood, "exploiting" the workers or getting "lucky". I mean, what is it with me? How could I get "lucky" time and time again? How was I lucky enough to make sacrifices and sell everything I owned to raise a little trading capital? Lucky enough to do odd jobs for even more? And then after working my ass off and going hungry just to save $1000, how do I manage to get lucky every single day and maintain a success/failure ratio in my day trading of around 14:3? To generate returns of over 1000% in a few months time? Just luck, definitely... Working hard for something and sticking to it had nothing to do with it...
@ Bardo: Then I guess I'm an "economic freak" then...
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
I was going to say that the rich earned their wealth about as much as a bank robber or a thief, but that isn't really true because robbing a bank can be a lot of work
Teach them basic human psychology. People will do almost anything for food, starvation is possibly the worst way to die.
That's a good post.
Don't think anyone said the ONLY way.Right, right... the only way to become wealthy is blue blood, "exploiting" the workers or getting "lucky". I mean, what is it with me? How could I get "lucky" time and time again? How was I lucky enough to make sacrifices and sell everything I owned to raise a little trading capital? Lucky enough to do odd jobs for even more? And then after working my ass off and going hungry just to save $1000, how do I manage to get lucky every single day and maintain a success/failure ratio in my day trading of around 14:3? To generate returns of over 1000% in a few months time? Just luck, definitely... Working hard for something and sticking to it had nothing to do with it...
Your not even in the real economy, your not in production or markets, your not actually in real finance (loans and the such), you buy and sell stocks.
1. You were lucky to have stuff to sell in the first place.Right, right... the only way to become wealthy is blue blood, "exploiting" the workers or getting "lucky". I mean, what is it with me? How could I get "lucky" time and time again? How was I lucky enough to make sacrifices and sell everything I owned to raise a little trading capital? Lucky enough to do odd jobs for even more? And then after working my ass off and going hungry just to save $1000, how do I manage to get lucky every single day and maintain a success/failure ratio in my day trading of around 14:3? To generate returns of over 1000% in a few months time? Just luck, definitely... Working hard for something and sticking to it had nothing to do with it...
@ Bardo: Then I guess I'm an "economic freak" then...
2. You were lucky enough to have those odd jobs offered to you.
3. You were lucky that you had enough income that you could save $1000.
You're not looking at the big picture. Some people work their asses off, go hungry, and only make $2 a day!
Imagine a boot stamping on a human face forever, saying:
"I KNOW YOU FEEL UPSET RE STAMPING, BUT THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM STRUCTURAL OPPRESSION"
and lucky enough to be born in a country with protected capital markets.
Your notions of what is "real" are simply false...
And this is not the only thing I'm working on. It's a vehicle for raising financial capital and generating income until I launch my full-out enterprise and incorporate in 2012.
The first thing I'm doing is establishing a financial subsidiary (which will primarily operate a hedge fund) to provide investment services and retirement investment for everyone from institutional investors and millionaires to regular working class families. Then I'm opening the tech/software subsidiary to get the projects I've funded out-of-pocket for the last three years to the market quickly. I also hope I can, some day, launch my own bank and small loans services that doesn't fuck people through stupid policies wrapped in legalese bullshit. I have full confidence that the business plan will be a resounding success -- treating people right makes more money than screwing them out of nickles and dimes.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
Let me put it this way, if every stock trader on earth died tommorow, society would be fine, we'd have some bumps and have to restructure a bit, but we'd be up and running in no time, if every plumber on earth died tommorow we would be in deep shit in a week.
Which is why the big banks are the big banks, the one financial institution I am for is credit unions personally.
You will have to screw people eventually, even if just a little, although if you want to be really successful it's going to have to be a lot. The need to accumulate capital is an all consuming need, until it gets to the point where you must accumulate capital in order to survive. Do I think capitalists are evil or greedy? No, they're just bowing down to the law of value.
But now we must pick up every piece
Of the life we used to love
Just to keep ourselves
At least enough to carry on
1) I worked my ass off doing things like remodeling ratty mobile homes and working in warehouses to buy what very little I had. Then I realized I should sell it (for much less than I paid for it) to raise some startup funds. This is not luck, in any sense of the word.1. You were lucky to have stuff to sell in the first place.
2. You were lucky enough to have those odd jobs offered to you.
3. You were lucky that you had enough income that you could save $1000.
You're not looking at the big picture. Some people work their asses off, go hungry, and only make $2 a day!
2) That's not luck... you're attributing everything to luck, which is absurd. You just don't want to admit people can succeed and that it's not a roll of the dice. Winning the lotto could be called "luck". There's no effort or skill involved other than just spending $1 on a ticket. Painting a picture is not luck... it takes dedication, persistence and much more. Being financially successful is just the same. As long as you continue to think this way you'll always be unhappy with your own material and financial situation.
3) I really didn't have enough income. I went hungry and would forgo practically everything except what I needed to stay alive. I became severely malnourished and underweight as a result of it. But I survived, and that's what counts.
Gacky:We've already talked about this Gacky... Yes, being born in a capitalist nation in the west, full of opportunity, was the only stroke of luck I ever had. I sincerely feel sympathy for people who are born in places which never embraced America's founding principles... people born into communist countries, for instance. And I dream of doing something to impact those peoples' lives in a positive way someday, other than just sending money to charities.
and lucky enough to be born in a country with protected capital markets.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
If that's what you think... No, you'd be totally fucked when you woke up in the morning.
Actually, if every socialist, communist, "progressive" and "revolutionary" died tomorrow we wouldn't even have any bumps or have to restructure. We would probably just have a big fiesta with balloons and everything!
Like the teacher's credit union that fucked over my mom and grandmother? Yeah, those guys are great... lolWhich is why the big banks are the big banks
That's not true, and I still wouldn't do it if it was. If I can only enjoy moderate success from treating people right, then so be it. But you're wrong...
What will pose the biggest challenge to me, if I do indeed try to start a bank, will be the crony system, an anti-business regulatory environment, political obstacles and the nature of a fiat monetary system. But I'm not thinking those things are going to last much longer, and they can still be overcome.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
I agree with you kapitalyst, everybody that are rich have worked hard for it, and every poor man is lazy. All the african gold miners that work 16 hours every day for a dollar and a half are lazy.
You will be running a bank, not a charity, and sometimes that requires not being a nice guy. You must accumulate and expand your capital, otherwise you risk losing it all. More than likely if you do become successful you will rationalize away the people who fail to pay their loans or their mortgages as lazy or unwise, while paying into charity as a penance.
But that's if you do become successful.
But now we must pick up every piece
Of the life we used to love
Just to keep ourselves
At least enough to carry on
What you mean to say is you were born into a country that came out of WW2 untouched and thus had a huge market to build, and a country with a government that protects capital markets, and corporations, i.e. big daddy government making sure you capitalists can make a profit. And Also born into a country that extracted wealth for decades from third world countries who had no say on the matter. THATS what this is about.
These rags to riches story have no place in a discussion about economics, its irrelivant, maybe its relevant to being an annoying douch at a dinner party, but its irrelivent to the bigger picture.
Because your mother and grandmother are the economy, get it straight, NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL STORIES, we are looking at the big picture, we are looking at economics here, not your family.
Really? How, we'd be fine, society does'nt need traders, never have, they don't produce anything.
Your not making any arguments here, your pointless.
Good argument.Actually, if every socialist, communist, "progressive" and "revolutionary" died tomorrow we wouldn't even have any bumps or have to restructure. We would probably just have a big fiesta with balloons and everything!
Always must it be some example about Africa or another third world country where the people have suffered from dictators, disease, wars and the likes?... when that's not who/what we're talking about? Nobody is calling those people lazy. And they may be uneducated and ignorant, but they're not stupid.I agree with you kapitalyst, everybody that are rich have worked hard for it, and every poor man is lazy. All the african gold miners that work 16 hours every day for a dollar and a half are lazy.
How many people here are actually doing anything to help them?
La Comédie Noire:So if you borrow money from me and say "fuck that guy" and stop paying, we should just toss out the terms of the loan and you get off scott free? That doesn't make sense...
You will be running a bank, not a charity, and sometimes that requires not being a nice guy. You must accumulate and expand your capital, otherwise you risk losing it all. More than likely if you do become successful you will rationalize away the people who fail to pay their loans or their mortgages as lazy or unwise, while paying into charity as a penance.
When a loan is made from party A to party B, there are terms in place that each must uphold. It depends on what the agreement is. There's no need to rationalize anything beyond that.
I'm not exactly going to give you a lecture on my business plan, but you seem to have misunderstood what I'm talking about. For starters, most poor people who are out there working hard have no credit options other than BS credit cards, pawn shops and payday loans. You ought to look up what the payday loan industry does to people (for a good laugh, look up "Western Sky Financial")... it's basically legal loan sharking. If you get a credit card, it's full of hidden fees and legal trickery, and most people don't even realize their interest rates are at the whim of the creditor. And pawn shops just aren't a good enough creditor, and require collateral. Furthermore, simply having a checking account is very expensive when you're operating on a slim budget -- been there, done that. They do everything they can (even if it means reordering transactions) to rack up overdraft fees. And those are typically $25 - $35! Yes, you overdraft by just $6 and you get charged $35. You then buy a pack of gum for 25-cents with your debit card, and you just bought the world's most expensive pack of Big Red. This is simply bullshit... One of the reasons I hate my own bank (Capital One) and deal almost strictly with my brokers (all of whom treat me wonderfully). Yes, the banking industry sucks and needs fresh competition to clean their clocks.
Imagine a bank that offered simple and straightforward checking services... and instead of the overdraft fee scheme, a built-in line of credit at a low rate. Imagine small/payday loans at low, fixed rates that undercut all competition to a huge degree -- rates that don't fuck over the debtor and no fees. If you've ever struggled to run a checking account or desperately needed to borrow a couple hundred bucks, you'll know exactly what a godsend this would be for millions. And imagine a lender that approached larger loans in a very straightforward, transparent fashion unlike the rest of the industry, and offered superior rates and policies. It would be a mass exodus... and a harsh wake up call for the banking industry.But that's if you do become successful.I don't know for sure that I'll actually try to open a bank. But it's something I'd love to do. The industry has begun to stink something awful in recent decades... no surprise after being in bed with Uncle Sam for years and never having a bath. It's about time for a new kid to come on the block and school them. And it's about time there are some reasonable options out there for consumers, instead of just "would you like to be fucked fast or slow?" Of course, the government will probably hate this, and label it "predatory pricing" to protect their babies. So not sure what sort of obstructions the state will throw my way...
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
It's not some isolated incident, Mr. I-LIKE-TO-TYPE-IN-ALL-CAPS-TO-REPRESENT-YELLING...
Really? How, we'd be fine, society does'nt need traders, never have, they don't produce anything.
Your not making any arguments here, your pointless.
Good argument.[/QUOTE]
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson
Thanks for the correction. The point is that you guys make it sound like the capitalist pays workers only what he has to pay and no more. Clearly he does not, not in the USA anyway. The reason he pays John Doe $17.50 or whatever instead of the $7.50 minimum or whatever is that he knows John Does might leave either to work for himself or for another company. That's not a very good example of slavery.
Does the employer benefit from the arrangement? Sure. But he brings things to the table too: goodwill, business experience, and capital that he has accumulated from his own work or borrowed from family, friends or the bank.
I actually think goodwill is the most important. It's an intangible, but some guys got it, and some don't.
Then they will argue "well, but I'm against corporatism, so you are not criticizing [free market] capitalism".
Like you said, most wealth of the rich is inherited. In Robin Hahne's The ABCs of Political Economy I recalling reading it was almost or more than 80%. Even if we assume that the "self-made man" "earned" his wealth fairly, he is the exception to the rule.
