Well Serbia always wanted to have their own country for nationalist reasons. So in other words yea its true
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Is Serbia to blame for the collapse of Yugoslavia ?
All that I seem to have read , points to the Serb Politicians and Nationalists as the ones intent on the destruction of the federal state and the espousing of a "Greater Serbia" -is this true or have I swallowed Western NATO propaganda?
Lied der Internationalen Brigaden'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJD0e...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-He0...eature=related
'extreme' is relative to some idea of a 'neutral center', which is almost always the dominant ideology or status quo. by placing yourself in this imaginary 'center' you are simply supporting the established order, and making yourself irrelevant as a human being. - Zenga Zenga
Well Serbia always wanted to have their own country for nationalist reasons. So in other words yea its true
Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution
No one party is more guilty than the other. All parties in that war encouraged nationalism and spread lies and slander against the other. The Slovenians were the first domino to fall, then there was an influx in Croat nationalism. The Serbs then decided to fight for what was perceived as "their" land which was pretty much wherever Serbs were living. As did the Bosnian Muslims, and Croat. The media from all sides began spreading lies and disinformation about the other causing more hate and blood lust.
The idea of "Greater Serbia" was that all ethnic Serbs should live in one state, and the idea was that if the others could secede from Yugoslavia, then the Serbs should be able to secede as well. So all the Serbs living in Bosnia and Croatia decided to secede and be part of this "Greater Serbia". This is about 45-50 percent of Bosnia, and a region in Croatia known as Krajina. Well, as you can imagine with each ethnic group wanting their own land, (particularly in Bosnia where there were Croats, Serbs, and Muslims) it pretty much turned into a clusterfuck of epic proportions...
This is a very sensitive subject, but I think it is safe to say there is no ONE party that was more at fault than the other and it would be unfair to decide that only one side was responsible.
Not really, the Serbs were generally satisfied with Yugoslavia and had no problem living with the other groups, considering we were all Yugoslavs.Well Serbia always wanted to have their own country for nationalist reasons. So in other words yea its true
No, Serbia isn't to blame. Like VALTER said above, there were ultra-nationalist demagogues in Croatia and elsewhere (Tudman proves this point alone). No one country was to blame for that tragedy...capitalism is.
No, you can't blame whole nation for something. But Serbian nationalist elite within Union of Communists could be responsible, because of their represive and nationalist politics on Kosovo. Also, Croatian and Slovenian political elites were for separation, because they were most developed regions of Yugoslavia.
Anyhow nationalism (in general) is one of reasons for collapse of Yugoslavia. When people talk about nationalism and Yugoslavia they talk about some "ancient" hate between nations (especially Serbs & Croats) which is bunch of bollocks. All nations accepted Yugoslavia as their country for more than 50 years. Other reasons could be economical, ideological etc.
I say we decide that no ONE party is at fault and end this conversation, because from personal experience, conversations on the Balkan wars can turn into a shit fight pretty quickly...
Still there were little differences, for example Macedonians, Bosnians and Slovenians wanted borders of new countires from '74's constitusion of Yugoslavia. Serbs wanted Great Serbia and started a war. Croatians had 2 streams: one, smaller one, wanted borders of Indepenednt State Of Croatia (confederation between Bosnia and Croatia) and second, bigger one, wanted just anexion of Hercegovina. Of course, I'm talking about elites when I talk about nations.
Well in that case i stand corrected. I was always thought that the Serbs started the Bosnia war and murdered thousands of civilians ( which they did murder). However I guess the collapse of Yugoslavia is based on nationalism from all sides
The VAST majority were happy with living in Yugoslavia. However, never underestimate a group of greedy capitalists...I mean before the war many people didn't even know if they were Serbs, or Muslims, or Croats...they were Yugoslavs...Well, now children are born hating their neighbors not even knowing why...
Census came by my house the other day, and I still proclaimed myself a Yugoslavian.
I wasn't answering on your post, since we were writing at the same time. Conversations on Balkan wars can turn into a shit fight only if you talk with nationalists.
All parties were responsible for collapse of Yugoslavia, since national elites wanted their own countries. Their moves were quite logical, even we don't have to aggre on them.
Main reason why national elites wanted their own countries was political liberalisation. Yugoslavia wanted to introduce Western multi-party system. In that kind of system the whole idea of equality between Yugoslav nations (which was main ideology of Yugoslav "socialist" elites in the Tito and Kardelj era) would fall into water. Why? Because now you would have different parties, which would be based on nationalites (such as Croatian HDZ for example) and Yugoslavia was a country where all nations were in minorty (Serbs were biggest with like 38%). So, national elites, who were affraid that other elites would take the power, decided that they should rather be big fish in small pound.
I know I was just saying in general...I wasn't referring to your post.
They did started a war and killed thousands of civilians. That's because of imperialist shit called "Great Serbia".
This is a propaganda. You can not say who was happy living in Yugoslavia, because nobody then asked people what do they thing, and now of course half of them will tell you it was better (because now they live in shit), and other half would tell you that it was worst (because they are nationalist idiots, veterans from Yugoslav wars or because they got rich in a war). Not all people were Yugoslavs, even system tired to create this as new identety. In 1989 less then 17% Yugoslav citisens declared themselves as Yugoslavs, the rest were Croats, Serbs etc.The VAST majority were happy with living in Yugoslavia. However, never underestimate a group of greedy capitalists...I mean before the war many people didn't even know if they were Serbs, or Muslims, or Croats...they were Yugoslavs...Well, now children are born hating their neighbors not even knowing why...
After all that Yugoslav identety was complete bollocks. Communist party should push the class not national line. Especially when they are pushing imaginary national line.
What held Yugoslavia together after the second World War was Tito's authority and suppression of nationalists, especially the Croats(The same Croats were the Axis puppets prior to the invasion of Yugoslavia, and who killed half a million Serbs during the war). What caused the collapse was partially the '74 Constitution, yes, but it was not important until Tito died. After his death, collapse was inevitable because of the terrible economic conditions(Before Tito's death, late 70's the elites of Yugoslavia knew how terrible the economic situation was, but it was kept secret from Tito in order not to upset the old hero, so everyone pretended everything was ok), which of course fueled nationalism.
Obviously, you can bet your ass CIA manipulation was a major factor as well.
Well, anybody who says that it is better now than how it was in Yugoslavia is, as you put it an idiot.
The party pushed national lines because the goal was to be united as a people. As Southern Slavs we are all literally the same except for religions and different accents. Knowing that there was still Ustasha and Chetnik and other nationalist crap left over from the war. I agree that the party shouldn't have focused on national lines, however after the war it was an understandable viewpoint. Focus should have shifted from that in the 60s early 70s when we began to prosper as a nation. Talk of national identity should have ceased, I would not even have included the question of what nationality you are in the census....
In 1989, already there was talk of secession and anti-Yugoslav rhetoric. I am telling you how it was in Bosnia, Sarajevo to be specific. People didn't even know wtf they were.
Don't even get me started on the CIA...I had a man in the US ADMIT to my mother that he was sent to Yugoslavia by the US to instigate...he admitted it and acted proud of it as if he had somehow helped my people...My mother called him all sorts of names and I was borderline ready to kill him on the spot...
Number of half milion Serbs killed is nationalist propaganda from late 80's. Same goes for half milion Croats killed at Bleiburg.
No, we're all guilty the same. Serbia just starter the nationalist "trend". But if they didn't do it, someone else would. Croats, Bosniaks, Slovenians, Kosovar Albanians.. etc., they all had their dumb reasons. Of course, not all people wanted it. It was a small minority, but you know how propaganda works.
Serbian nationalists, as you said, wanted to create "Greater Serbia" (to annex to Serbia all countries which they think was Serbia once. This includes all of Macedonia, all of Montenegro, All of Bosnia, and 80% of Croatia).
Croatian nationalist wanted to bring back the "Indenpendent State of Croatia", which is annexing all of Bosnia and some of Serbia.
Some Bosniak nationalists wanted the Bosniak nationality to be called that, Bosniak. (In Yugoslavia they were only called "Bosnian Muslims", before that they weren't even considered a nation, but Serbs and Croats.) Others, the dumber ones, wanted to create some sort of muslim republic.. or whatever.
Slovenian nationalist wanted to ass lick the west and be like Germans (also indenpendence).
Kosovar Albanian nationalists wanted the creation of Greater Albania, which would make Kosovo a part of Albania.
Montenegrins and Macedonians didn't actually want much, as far as I know. Montenegrins usually do whatever Serbs tell them (well, they did before), and Macedonians are kinda neutral.
So, you see, they're all to blame. However, notice how I said "nationalists"? There weren't many nationalists in Yugoslavia before hell broke loose. They all sorta started emerging with their crap nazi ideals, one by one.
There's a good documentary on this subject. "The Weight of Chains". It's maybe a tiny bit biased and leans on Serbian side, but that's alright.
...Dok je uprava gore, dronjav žitelj dolje, a vojska grdna zvijer na tankom lancu, bit će buna i pohara...
- Derviš Sušić
Also, regarding national question in Yugoslavia check articles by Dejan Jovic. He's a liberal and an adviser of Croatian president (if you are interested in somebodies politcal belifes), but he wrote good articles and a book.
It is impossible to place the blame on a single republic...
I think it is also important to look at international actors that contributed to the collapse of Yugoslavia, in addition to domestic parties and leaders. The fall of Yugoslavia and the subsequent wars did not occur in a vacuum. For instance, I think that Germany recognized the independence of Croatia much too early (probably caught up in the excitement of the triumph of "democracy" and the end of communism following the fall of the Berlin wall). Recognizing Croatia before agreements had a chance to be worked out or Serbian minority rights secured made the collapse of the SFRY inevitable. In addition, Croatian Serbs did not feel confident that their rights would be protected in an independent Croatia, which was a major factor in the wars.
Partija Rada (Party of Labour)