Is Serbia to blame for the collapse of Yugoslavia ?

[Yugo45]

I'm just an American, but the impression I get of the whole Balkan ethnic shitstorm is that it's just conflict between regional groups with different political/religious history but who essentially speak the same exact language, at most with regional dialects like we have in the US such as the deep south or New England (which can sometimes be hard to understand for someone not from those areas). So it's a power play by some elites in all camps.

Pretty much, yes.

[Nox]

I'm just an American, but the impression I get of the whole Balkan ethnic shitstorm is that it's just conflict between regional groups with different political/religious history but who essentially speak the same exact language, at most with regional dialects like we have in the US such as the deep south or New England (which can sometimes be hard to understand for someone not from those areas). So it's a power play by some elites in all camps.

It really is an utter shitstorm; the Christian nations hate the Muslim nations, Greece hates Macedonia, Serbia hates everyone, and everyone hates Albania.

[MattShizzle]

The same Nationalist shit in that region was the immediate cause of WWI. Of course it was going to happen regardless due to Nationalist shit from the major powers.

[Yugo45]

The same Nationalist shit in that region was the immediate cause of WWI. Of course it was going to happen regardless due to Nationalist shit from the major powers.

No, not really actually.

World War I's immediate cause was a wish from South Slavic nations to be freed from Austro-Hungarian opression.

[Nox]

wish from South Slavic nations to be freed from Austro-Hungarian opression.

Also known as 'nationalism'

[Yugo45]

I should of said "South Slavic people" instead of "nations". My bad.

[nowarbutclasswar]

There was a plebiscit and cca. 90% of population voted on it for secession. That is a historical fact.

Regarding your theory that Yugoslavia was destroyed from outside - that's conspirecy theory.

Also, funny that you mentioned Djindjic since he was arrested in Yugoslavia because of "Maoism". He also translated Kropotkin on Serbocroatian, which was one of the first translations of Kropotkin on our languages. Funny thing, right?

That may be so but it does not make the secession legal because independance was declared without the consent of Serbs living in Croatia, whom the Yugoslav constitution regarded as a constituent nation and whose consent was necessary for a legal secession. Furthermore, the Yugoslav constitution guaranteed contituent nations (not republics) the right to self determination and secession and therefore Serbs had the right to secede from Croatia or Bosnia.

Djindjic was a far-left dissident at first but upon his return to Yugoslavia in the late 80's he founded a pro-western liberal party. His policies basically opened the door for western capital in Serbia after 2000. It is funny that his views would take such a 180, and it is an indication (at least to me) that he was serving outside interests.

[khlib]

I should of said "South Slavic people" instead of "nations". My bad.

It WAS nationalism, but unlike the nationalist movements of the 1990's, the Illyrian and Yugoslav nationalist movements sought to emphasize the similarities shared among the different South Slavic ethnic groups (such as language and folk culture). These movements were formed in response to political oppression under the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires and the threat of Maygarization.

The nationalist movements of the 1990's were the exact opposite, emphasizing the differences between the groups, such as religion. The different South Slavic ethnic groups saw one another as their greatest threat, rather than a foreign empire.

[Искра]

It really is an utter shitstorm; the Christian nations hate the Muslim nations, Greece hates Macedonia, Serbia hates everyone, and everyone hates Albania.

And your posts are an utter spam.

The same Nationalist shit in that region was the immediate cause of WWI. Of course it was going to happen regardless due to Nationalist shit from the major powers.

I wasn't cause of WW1. Cause was change of dominant ideology within Yugoslavia and secession. As I pointed few times: you need nationalism to form nation-state, as you need an extreme nationalism to win a war. It’s quite simple.

Yugo45 point is really good.

World War I's immediate cause was a wish from South Slavic nations to be freed from Austro-Hungarian opression.

Still there are few things to correct. Only “Yugoslav nations” within Austro-Hungarian Empire (Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians and Croat and Bosnian Serbs) wanted to be freed from Austro-Hungarian Empire and to enter into a new state with Kingdom of Serbia. That state will eventually become monarchist Yugoslavia (how, when etc. is not a topic here, so I won’t write about that.). Serbs from Kingdom of Serbia didn’t want that. They wanted to created Great Serbia (in other words they demanded territorial compensations after WW1: Vojvodina, Srijem, part of Slavonia, Bosnia etc), but they also kept “Yugoslav ace” in their sleeve.

Of course, I’m talking only about national elites.

Also known as 'nationalism'

It was not exactly a nationalism, because they wanted to create Yugoslav country. It was a project of Yugoslav panslavism...

It WAS nationalism, but unlike the nationalist movements of the 1990's, the Illyrian and Yugoslav nationalist movements sought to emphasize the similarities shared among the different South Slavic ethnic groups (such as language and folk culture). These movements were formed in response to political oppression under the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires and the threat of Maygarization.

Ok, now with the Illyrian movement and stuff you dragged us back into 19th century and into “process of creating” Yugoslav nations. First it’s important to explain to users who are not familiar with Yugoslavia what was an “Illyrian movement”. It was 19th century’s Croatian nationalist movement which claimed that Croats, Slovenians and Serbs are Illyrians. Later came movements which founded Yugoslav theory. So, “Yugoslav identity” and political union based on that principle was firstly bourgeois concept which was supported by Croat, Slovenian and Serbian political elites in Austro-Hungarian Empire. Serbs in Kingdom of Serbia were never so keen on that concept, because they had an idea of Great Serbia. Notable Serbian politician Nikola Pašić once said that “Yugoslav identity is like pouring water in strong Serbian wine”.

But regarding monarchist and socialist Yugoslavia’s and concept of Yugoslav national identity it’s important to emphasize one difference. Bourgeois concept of Yugoslav national unity was progressive idea. That concept was one step before its time and it preached unity between tree Yugoslav nations: Croats, Serbians and Slovenians (original name of monarchist Yugoslavia was Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians). But in a case of socialist concept of Yugoslav national identity I’m not sure if that was so progressive, because socialist regime should put emphasize on CLASS question and not so on NATIONAL question. But that would lead us to a much bigger discussion regarding certain strategies from National Liberation Struggle (such as concept of National front for example) to collapse of Yugoslavia. Today, Yugoslav identity is dead thing, and in my opinion communists/socialist etc. in ex-Yugoslavia countries shouldn’t promote it. Instead of that we should concentrate on class concepts and class struggle.

Djindjic was a far-left dissident at first but upon his return to Yugoslavia in the late 80's he founded a pro-western liberal party. His policies basically opened the door for western capital in Serbia after 2000. It is funny that his views would take such a 180, and it is an indication (at least to me) that he was serving outside interests.

Oh, stop with the CIA conspiracy theories. Djindjic won power not because he was a spy, but because he was in good arrangement with Serbian mafia and he was young, charismatic politician with a “dream” of democratic Serbia. He was basically, regarding his PR and rhetoric, quite opposite of other candidates. Regarding his “ideological switch” he was a man with an ambition and his far-left political beliefs belonged to his collage youth. That’s actually something quite normal.

[nowarbutclasswar]

Oh, stop with the CIA conspiracy theories. Djindjic won power not because he was a spy, but because he was in good arrangement with Serbian mafia and he was young, charismatic politician with a “dream” of democratic Serbia. He was basically, regarding his PR and rhetoric, quite opposite of other candidates. Regarding his “ideological switch” he was a man with an ambition and his far-left political beliefs belonged to his collage youth. That’s actually something quite normal.

Do you honestly believe that no outside interests played a role in the dissolution of Yugoslavia? They played the biggest role and there is countless documented instances that point to foreign middling in Yugoslav affairs since the 80's. I wouldn't even know where to begin. CIA even admitted that the head of Yugoslavian intelligence (Jovica Stanisic) was their agent, and you don't think a PRO-WESTERN NEOLIBERAL ADVOCATE was acting on their behalf? Plus, I think it is standard procedure that intelligence agencies through various forms of subversion destabilize other nations. This is also very well documented. Why would it be any different in Yugoslavia's case?

[tir1944]

They played the biggest role

Hardly...

I mean,the West's "best friend" in YU was Ante Marković (a neoliberal democrat etc.Yugo-prime minister...),from what i know,and he eventually got "pushed aside" by Slobo,Franjo & Co...

[Искра]

They played the biggest role

No, they didn't. Actually most of the West wanted Yugoslavia to just change to market capitalism and liberal democracy. The biggest role was played by nationalist elites.

[JFB.anon]

Ok, I'm a pretty leftist guy. I know that its retarded to blame people for anything in this capitalist society, blaming a hobo for his supposed poverty is like blaming the cripple for not being able to walk.

However, despite being a vitriolic anti-racist...

Yes. It is entirely the Serbs fault as to why the first, successful worker's state crashed and burned. Saying otherwise is dishonest.

Perhaps you could say that the Oil crisis that threw Eastern Europe into economic chaos precipitated Serb nationalism and that it's more rational to say that Slobodan Milosevic is merely an exploitative fuck who took advantage of economic discontent, but that doesn't change anything. Serb nationalism ruined Yugoslavia.

[4 Leaf Clover]

That [insert country name] is fault for so called "collapse" of Yugoslavia is long running imperialist propaganda bullshit. We all know that Yugoslavia didn't collapse. Yugoslavia was destroyed violently with great international interference in war , actually helping development of war as oppose to their claims of playing "peace" role. Not only the west lead propaganda to speed up the separation of Yugoslavia , but they armed and helped forces organize attacks on towns and villages and helped build front lines.

The reason behind "collapse" theory , is that Yugoslav nations are made clear and convinced that Yugoslavia is impossible , and that it couldn't have worked. To tell what would happen if the nations wanted to unite again. This hatred theory is mainstream today , and people believe it.