Explain Trotskyism in short.. and some other stuff

[RightWinger]

There is a possibility I misspelled it, I am sorry for that.
So what is the difference between Trotskysm and Leninism.. Many people combine Marxism and Leninism.. can you combine Marxism-Trotskysm ?
Frankly, I don't know what Marxism is. I get what communism is, but I'm not informed about the specifics.

I'm guessing there is difference becouse of the vanguard (I also don't know what that is) and should socialism be in one country... And why did Stalin dislike Trotsky ?

To be honest I didn't know there were so many ideological conflicts among teh revolutionary left, I'd like to hear the specifics

[Nox]

Explain Trotskyism in short

Crazy.

[RightWinger]

Crazy.

I expected that from a Stalinist.

[Art Vandelay]

Perhaps I can help as I am acquainted with Trotskyism but I am sure I will leave some things out and there are others on the board who could most likely do a better job than this, but here it goes:

Now to begin I will give a quick answer to your question of what is Marxism. Basically Marxism is the communism advocated by Marx & Engels.

Now both Trotskyism and Stalinism consider themselves the ideological continuation of orthodox Marxism (Marx & Engels communism). That is why Stalinist consider themselves Marxist-Leninists and Trotsky after his death took to calling himself a Bolshevik-Leninist. However nowadays Trotskyist generally simply call themselves Trotskyists.

Generally while M-Ls may at times be critical of Stalin (not all of them though), they view that he was building socialism correctly in the USSR. Trotskyists on the other hand were directly opposed to Stalinist USSR and viewed it as a deformed workers state.

Another aspect that differs between the two is that Stalinists believe in what is called socialism in one country while Trotskyists believe in permanent revolution and internationalism.

Pretty short answer to a big question, but I could go over anything you did not understand or want clarification on. A quick question to you, are you coming around on leftist politics or just simply curious?

[OHumanista]

Perhaps I can help as I am acquainted with Trotskyism but I am sure I will leave some things out and there are others on the board who could most likely do a better job than this, but here it goes:

Now to begin I will give a quick answer to your question of what is Marxism. Basically Marxism is the communism advocated by Marx & Engels.

Now both Trotskyism and Stalinism consider themselves the ideological continuation of orthodox Marxism (Marx & Engels communism). That is why Stalinist consider themselves Marxist-Leninists and Trotsky after his death took to calling himself a Bolshevik-Leninist. However nowadays Trotskyist generally simply call themselves Trotskyists.

Generally while M-Ls may at times be critical of Stalin (not all of them though), they view that he was building socialism correctly in the USSR. Trotskyists on the other hand were directly opposed to Stalinist USSR and viewed it as a deformed workers state.

Another aspect that differs between the two is that Stalinists believe in what is called socialism in one country while Trotskyists believe in permanent revolution and internationalism.

Pretty short answer to a big question, but I could go over anything you did not understand or want clarification on. A quick question to you, are you coming around on leftist politics or just simply curious?

Quite a good explanation indeed, and unbiased(which even with my non-sectarianism I would find hard to do). Short but simple enough for someone outside the subject looking for a brief explanation.

[ComradeMan]

Seriously, isn't it about time we as the "left", left behind these old -isms from the past. Trotsky and Stalin are long dead....

[Sentinel]

The short answer to 'what is Trotskyism?' would be 'revolutionary democratic socialism'. Trotskyists struggle for socialist/communist revolution while putting emphasis to workers power and democracy, and aim for a society with a democratically planned economy, as opposed to a bureacratically planned one like the Stalinists or a market economy like capitalists.

The ideology is named after Leon Davidovich Trotsky, one of the leaders of the Russian revolution in 1917, the founder and first leader of the Red Army and one of the leading figures of the early Soviet state.

So what is the difference between Trotskysm and Leninism.. Many people combine Marxism and Leninism.. can you combine Marxism-Trotskysm ?

Rosario is correct. Trotsky considered himself an orthodox Marxist and a Leninist, so in fact Marxist-Leninist would describe his views. The word is however traditionally associated with the Stalinists, which is why Trotsky used Bolshevik-Leninist and Trotskyists today usually call themselves either Marxists or Trotskyists.

Frankly, I don't know what Marxism is. I get what communism is, but I'm not informed about the specifics.

Karl Marx was the author of Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto (together with Friedrich Engels), which are perhaps the most important sources of socialist/communist thought. He was also one of the founders of the first proper communist (marxist) organisation, the Communist League. Thusly he is considered the 'father' of modern (non-anarchist) socialism/communism.

I'm guessing there is difference becouse of the vanguard (I also don't know what that is)

You aren't completely wrong there, although the difference is between Trotskyists and Stalinists ('marxist-leninists'), not 'Marxists'. But it indeed has to do with the vanguard, or more specifically it's role. The vanguard is the ideologically most advanced, revolutionary layer of the working class. Marxists aim at organising this vanguard into a revolutionary party.

Now, as said Trotskyists put emphasis on democracy and believe that this party should be accountable before the workers, and it's representatives electable and recallable and without privileges that ordinary workers don't receive. As can be seen of the development of the USSR and other Stalinist countries, Stalinists don't share this idea. Instead an unaccountable and undemocratic bureacracy has invariably seized power in Stalinist parties and the countries they controlled and still control.

and should socialism be in one country...

Socialism in one country was Stalin's main theoretical contribution to socialist thought, one that we trotskyists argue was a huge mistake. Trotsky and the Left Opposition wanted the USSR CP (also known as the Bolshevik Party) to continue the Marxist tradition of internationalism, and actively work to spread the revolution to other countries -- most importantly Germany and the rest of Europe -- as Russia was too technologically backwards to stand alone against the capitalist world or to develop socialism.

Had this been done, we would not only have avoided avoided the horrors of fascism and the second world war, but the world would most likely be socialist in it's entirety by now. Instead, precisely as Trotsky predicted would happen, the Stalinist bureacracy finally reinstalled capitalism in the USSR.

And why did Stalin dislike Trotsky ?

Trotsky opposed the bureaucratic development in the USSR, and formed together with his supporters a fraction known as the Left Opposition within the Communist Party of the USSR. Stalin, however, managed to skillfully outmanouver it's members from the party's Central Committee (as he later did with anyone opposed to his rule) and later from the party itself.

Trotsky was expelled from the country and went to exile, ending up in Mexico where he was murdered by Stalin's agents while he was organising an international resistance movement against Stalinism and for a democratic socialist world revolution, known as the Fourth International.

It has since split into several 'competing' Internationals which link up Trotskyist parties all around the world. The largest one is called United Secretariat of the Fourth International (USFI), the second largest Committee for a Workers' International (CWI). Other notable Internationals are International Marxist Tendency (IMT) and International Socialist Tendency (IST).

***

This thread should be in the Learning section if OI; moved.

[RightWinger]

That sums it up, thanks ! However I wonder.. Why is Marxism Leninism = Stalinism.. I thought both Marx and Lenin disliked the idea of having a dictator

How did Lenin contribute to the Marxist thought ?

[Nox]

I expected that from a Stalinist.

I was a Trotskyist for a very long time, much longer than I've been a ML.

Even coming from a totally balanced, neutral standpoint it sounds ridiculous.

[CommieTroll]

The main difference between Trotskyism & Marxism-Leninism is that Trotskyists believe in achieving Communism through Trotsky's theory of Permanent Revolution while M-L's advocate Lenin's theories with Stalin's theory of Socialism In One Country. Trotskyists refer to themselves as ''Bolshevik Leninists''. A good book to read is Lenin's The State and Revolution http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/wo...erev/index.htm, Trotsky's main work that I would recommend is The Revolution Betrayed http://marxists.org/archive/trotsky/...vbet/index.htm. I wouldn't pay any attention to all the tendency wars on here, they are usually counter productive.

[CommieTroll]

Seriously, isn't it about time we as the "left", left behind these old -isms from the past. Trotsky and Stalin are long dead....

After hearing this I'm thinking of becoming a Non-Doctrine Communist

[DarkPast]

That sums it up, thanks ! However I wonder.. Why is Marxism Leninism = Stalinism.. I thought both Marx and Lenin disliked the idea of having a dictator

I'm sure the local Marxists-Leninists will tell you different, but I think it was simply a way for Stalin to legitimize his position as the "true heir" of Lenin. Remember, there was a long power struggle within the Party before Stalin took control, and he had many opponents and rivals (so naming a tendency after himself would have been way too pretentious).

How did Lenin contribute to the Marxist thought

His most important contribution is the idea of a Vanguard party (i.e. professional revolutionaries) leading a political revolution, rather than Marx's idea of a spontaneous working-class uprising. Lenin stressed that the Vanguard party must have internal democratic centralism. Such a party has the duty to educate the working class, to dispel the societal false consciousness of religion and nationalism, which Lenin believed to be the product of bourgeois indoctrination in facilitating exploitation.

He also had something to say about imperialism being the highest stage of capitalism, but I'll have to cut that short since I've gotta go now.

[DarkPast]

Seriously, isn't it about time we as the "left", left behind these old -isms from the past. Trotsky and Stalin are long dead....

Well they are dead but their theories are not. Though I sometimes get the impression that people here feel compelled to follow the example of a their "chosen" theorist to the exclusion of all others, and defend all his/her actions/interpretations/positions no matter what.

[CommieTroll]

The main problem I have with Trotskyism is that is was never a major political force and never led a revolution (October Revolution doesn't count) and I don't agree with his theory of Permanent Revolution

[Sentinel]

That sums it up, thanks ! However I wonder.. Why is Marxism Leninism = Stalinism.. I thought both Marx and Lenin disliked the idea of having a dictator

Good question! It's indeed highly ironical. The explanation as I see it is simply that Stalinism as the most powerful tendency, controlling the USSR and it's satellite states in the so called Socialist Bloc, managed to hijack it and use it most vocally so that it became established and recognised.

Lenin was very much devoted to the idea of democracy within the communist party and society in general, something even bourgeois historians admitted right until the 90s. Immediately after the revolution only a proto-fascist party called 'The Black Hundreds' was forbidden, and even many that had opposed the Bolshevik takeover were released on the condition that they promised not to take up arms again (a promise they in many cases didn't keep).

But Soviet Russia was invaded by the counter-revolutionary white armies as well as several foreign intervention armies, which caused a long and bloody civil war. At the same time parties and organisations opposed to the Bolsheviks used their freedom of speech to openly cheering the enemy and other counter-revolutionary activities.

This situation forced Lenin and his party to take authoritarian measures and forbid opposition, but these measures were strictly intended as temporary. However, when Lenin died soon after the civil war ended, Stalin's fraction seized power in the party and cemented them as official ideology.

How did Lenin contribute to the Marxist thought ?

Lenin developed Marxism a lot. Crucially developing the ideas on the vanguard party and democratic centralism are perhaps his most important contributions. His description of how the socialist state differs from the bourgeois one in The State and the Revolution is also an invaluable tool for us.

[RightWinger]

The main problem I have with Trotskyism is that is was never a major political force and never led a revolution (October Revolution doesn't count) and I don't agree with his theory of Permanent Revolution

Explain away

[RightWinger]

Good question! It's indeed highly ironical. The explanation as I see it is simply that Stalinism as the most powerful tendency, controlling the USSR and it's satellite states in the so called Socialist Bloc, managed to hijack it and use it most vocally so that it became established and recognised.

Lenin was very much devoted to the idea of democracy within the communist party and society in general, something even bourgeois historians admitted right until the 90s. Immediately after the revolution only a proto-fascist party called 'The Black Hundreds' was forbidden, and even many that had opposed the Bolshevik takeover were released on the condition that they promised not to take up arms again (a promise they in many cases didn't keep).

But Soviet Russia was invaded by the counter-revolutionary white armies as well as several foreign intervention armies, which caused a long and bloody civil war. At the same time parties and organisations opposed to the Bolsheviks used their freedom of speech to openly cheering the enemy and other counter-revolutionary activities.

This situation forced Lenin and his party to take authoritarian measures and forbid opposition, but these measures were strictly intended as temporary. However, when Lenin died soon after the civil war ended, Stalin's fraction seized power in the party and cemented them as official ideology.

Lenin developed Marxism a lot. Crucially developing the ideas on the vanguard party and democratic centralism are perhaps his most important contributions. His description of how the socialist state differs from the bourgeois one in The State and the Revolution is also an invaluable tool for us.

All right.. what was the relation between Lenin and Trotsky and how did their political thoughts differ ? So far I only saw similarities

[Sentinel]

All right.. what was the relation between Lenin and Trotsky and how did their political thoughts differ ? So far I only saw similarities

They had quite a few differences before the revolution, but during it and afterwards Trotsky became a staunch Leninist and his theories -- known today as Trotskyism -- are firmly rooted in Lenin's. They came along well enough as persons.

As Anton Nilsson (1887-1989), a Swedish red army fighter in the Russian civil war (and one of the first Red fighter pilots) described their relationship when interviewed in 1977:

'Lenin could not have successfully finished that Revolution without Trotsky. Trotsky was the military man and the militant, who could organise; incredible organisation skills. But Trotsky could not have made it without the theoretical contribution of Lenin, his skills to lead the people theoretically.

Lenin and Trotsky completed each other like one person, and this saved the Revolution. The others, Bukharin, Kamenev, Radek and even Stalin, they were like a complement. But Lenin and Trotsky were the main anchor.'

[CommieTroll]

Explain away

For starters I don't see how stating that the bourgeois can't lead to liberation over an imperialist power is unique to Trotsky, that's Lenin's theory. I don't see how a democratic revolution grows over into a Socialist revolution and becomes a Permanent Revolution, I can't come up with a better explanation right now but that's it in short, it doesn't make sense to me and I don't see Trotskyism as a possible revolutionary force

[Art Vandelay]

For starters I don't see how stating that the bourgeois can't lead to liberation over an imperialist power is unique to Trotsky, that's Lenin's theory. I don't see how a democratic revolution grows over into a Socialist revolution and becomes a Permanent Revolution, I can't come up with a better explanation right now but that's it in short, it doesn't make sense to me and I don't see Trotskyism as a possible revolutionary force

Umm have you ever heard of the October revolution?