Biggest fear. I would discuss things that are being done to try to mitigate this if they do restrict access, but this is an open internet forum.
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It will start with moving in and shoving then a lot of baton work followed by spray to those who complain followed by horse mounted jerks trampling people.
Or there's gonna be some type of special passes issued to people who 'work there' and the main body of demonstrators won't get anywhere near where they want to be. Imagine a typical summit scenario.
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
Biggest fear. I would discuss things that are being done to try to mitigate this if they do restrict access, but this is an open internet forum.
[FONT=Arial]“Whoever labours becomes a proprietor... And when I say proprietor, I do not mean simply (as do our hypocritical economists) proprietor of his allowance, his salary, his wages, – I mean proprietor of the value he creates, and by which the master alone profits... The labourer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right in the thing he has produced.”[/FONT]-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, What is Property?, pg. 123-4
Last June, when the NYC municipal unions were mobilizing in order to defuse the resistance to Bloomberg's budget, something like this was attempted, and was actually sanctioned by the city gov. Apparently a judge ruled that "campers" could set up there "tent city" outside city hall park on portion of the street. BFD. I think. a few people actually stayed a few days, and then it died away.
We-- Insurgent Notes-- produced a leaflet for the demonstrations, a pretty good leaflet if I say so myself, went to the demonstrations, and got the typical zero response. As for the tent city then, I didn't think it was even worth addressing.
And I still feel that way. Let's be clear, Tahrir Square, hasn't accomplished much of anything, because it's demands haven't engaged the social basis, the economic basis, the class basis, for the state of the Egyptian people. And.. therefore, the "Arab Spring" movement is under attack and being rolled back in Egypt.
The "demand" for this imitation of "struggle, interrupted" is even more lame than the demand that Mubarak must go, as that demand contained a confrontation with the ruling class and the ruling class agents and operatives of the Egyptian state. This demand doesn't even do that.
S.Artesian:
Yeah, we all agree the demand sucks but it's still an important action as we've discussed through out the thread as it would be a good thing to see 20,000 people occupy a major landmark for months. Plus the more militant we can make this event the better.
Last edited by AnonymousOne; 11th August 2011 at 01:27.
[FONT=Arial]“Whoever labours becomes a proprietor... And when I say proprietor, I do not mean simply (as do our hypocritical economists) proprietor of his allowance, his salary, his wages, – I mean proprietor of the value he creates, and by which the master alone profits... The labourer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right in the thing he has produced.”[/FONT]-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, What is Property?, pg. 123-4
Be my guest. But look, why take a gigantic step backward and ask for Obama to create another bullshit commission when Obama has aligned himself, at every opportunity, with the "corporatocracy"?
Why not set up a workers commission to present evidence on the transfer of wealth up the social ladder, the turning of the national treasury into a "bad bank" to keep the investment, commercial, private banking system, and bankers afloat and rich?
Why not build on what's been done and articulated on even the basic level of Madison, Wis. and present class-wide demands that break through this ridiculous mythology about democracy, and representative government and all that crap?
Why not occupy the Fed Reserve Bank of NY? Or at least surround it? Set up your tents right on those steps and refuse admittance to any and all the bankers?
Why not do something a bit more creative and bit less whiny, and obsequious?
Why engage in the same dead-end crap that has been proven to lead to nowhere?
a) I do
b) I have
c) I have
d) I do: this is a giant step backwards. What's with this bullshit appeal to the "right"-- as in cleaning up corruption in Washington is something both right and left agree on, or share. That's complete fucking crap. This isn't about corruption, it's about class. About the organization of labor. The fucking right doesn't care about corruption as long as their benefiting from it. Look at these fucking Palinites? You don't think they're as corrupt as anyone else? Do us a favor........
If you don't distinguish yourself from the right, on the basis of class, then all you're doing is strengthening the right.
Updates:
The 2nd General Assembly at the Irish Potato Famine Memorial was a great success. About 175-200 people showed up, there was good energy and we self organized into a fairly well functioning assembly.
We spoke about our personal reasons for being there, the groups feelings about demands and message, and then broke up into committees.
Off the top of my head those committees are:
OUTREACH - Next meeting: Thursday August 11th at 5pm, at the Verizon picket line, on the corner of Barclay and West st. Everyone is a member and should attend if possible, it's up to us to get our message out.
FOOD - Assembly for #occupywallstreet needs help on FOOD and WATER logistics working group. [1] [email protected]
LOGISTICS - This group stayed very late. I wasn't able to stick around, apologies. I left after my committee meeting was done. I'll try to get information from someone who was in Logistics.
STUDENTS - We had a handful of students from colleges around the NYC area discuss ways that students could provide support, and students could be supported.
FACILITATION - I am unsure if this committee met or has been formed.
INTERNET - We want to form a web space for the General Assembly where we can share documents, ideas, and links to other groups in solidarity. Next meeting: Thursday (aug 11), 7pm @ Earth Matters 177 Ludlow St
PDF fliers for the next General Assembly on the 13th can be found here.
Even if you haven't been to previous ones, please feel free to come to any committee meeting or General Assembly. We're entirely open, and we'd love to have more participation from others.
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Rides and Carpools are being organized:
https://occupywallst.org/rides/
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If you're too far away and feel like you can't attend have no fear!
http://usdayofrage.org/occupy-the-st...dayofrage.html
Our partner, US Day of Rage is organizing multiple occupations of locations that might be easier for you to attend. However, for New Yorkers and people in that general area, it's reccomended that you Occupy Wall Street.
[FONT=Arial]“Whoever labours becomes a proprietor... And when I say proprietor, I do not mean simply (as do our hypocritical economists) proprietor of his allowance, his salary, his wages, – I mean proprietor of the value he creates, and by which the master alone profits... The labourer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right in the thing he has produced.”[/FONT]-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, What is Property?, pg. 123-4
Because no one would attend that, duh. The main reason I'm participating, and I think others should is because we'll have a chance to offer those class specific demands. Movements are dynamic and they change, but we can't influence them unless we participate.
I've been to every General Assembly so far and it's becoming more concrete, our message is becoming more clearly anti-corporate, and it's moving to the left.
There's nothing wrong with attempting to influence things from the outside is there? Besides even if it was just a centrist "anti-corruption" event, I'd still go because occupying Wall St. is, in and of itself, a radical thing to do. Wall St. is a very loaded symbol. I also, don't know why you'd think blocking the Federal Reserve in New York would get more attention or be better than occupying Wall St.
I'm not hearing many reasons why this is bad, just reasons why it's not perfect.
[FONT=Arial]“Whoever labours becomes a proprietor... And when I say proprietor, I do not mean simply (as do our hypocritical economists) proprietor of his allowance, his salary, his wages, – I mean proprietor of the value he creates, and by which the master alone profits... The labourer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right in the thing he has produced.”[/FONT]-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, What is Property?, pg. 123-4
How do you know that? How do you know that if you actually present an accurate analysis of what's going on and what must be done, nobody's going to attend? They attended pretty well in France, Spain, the UK, Italy, Greece when actually class issues have been raised. How do you know that after the failure of all this "lowest common denominatorism," of this "Yes, we can [but no we won't] stuff from Obama, that nobody will respond to anything that isn't more of the same?
Can you give me an example? The statement you posted certainly doesn't indicate that. Maybe there's something else published that does, and if so I sure would appreciate a copy of it.
Wait a minute. Nobody just occupies Wall Street. People don't take actions divorced from the social, and economic, context. So let's establish what that social and economic context is. Let's call it by its right names, and not try to obscure what's going on by making corruption an issue. That's like saying Bernie Madoff, or unscrupulous mortgage floggers are the cause of the current situation. Corruption has exactly nothing to do with it as a cause. It is an effect.
And come on, you know the Fed is in the Wall Street Area, just a bit north. Ever hear of Maiden Lane? As in Maiden Lane 1, bailing out Bear Stearns? And Maiden Lane 2 as in bailing out AIG. Check it out.
You know what else is cool about the NY Fed? That's where other governments keep their gold deposits-- in marked off areas, and sometimes when transactions are settled in gold, the Fed has these forklifts that move the pallets of gold from once country's square to another's, like a board game.
I can only say it. I can't make you hear it. The political demand on which this thing is based are worse than reformist-- they are "co-optist"-- designed to co-opt dissent and make it a basis for supporting the "liberal" program.
Because the U.S isn't radical, it's very conservative and social democracy is considered revolutionary and radical. The only thing I can offer you is election results and anecodtal evidence though.
Yeah, I remember that time Obama talked about how we needed to occupy Wall Street and fight off the cops and national guard. The difference is in tactics, voting is passive, occupation is active.
Yeah sure, currently the majority of people that are involved are increasingly becoming in favor of making the demand the revocation of corporate personhood. At the sister site of occupywallstreet.org,
http://occupywallstreetnews.com/
You'll notice for example, the RSA video on the Crises of Capitalism, articles calling for higher taxes on the rich and pointing out just how much 1% of America owns. It's slowly becoming more radical.
Most people I've talked to are occupying Wall Street, because hey, "Fuck Wall Street" or "Fuck the Rich". But that's once again anecdotal, I hope the link above will convince you that we're not simply against corruption.
Also, yes I know where the Fed. Reserve is located, I was pointing out that all of Wall Street would be a better/bigger target than simply the Fed. Reserve alone.
[FONT=Arial]“Whoever labours becomes a proprietor... And when I say proprietor, I do not mean simply (as do our hypocritical economists) proprietor of his allowance, his salary, his wages, – I mean proprietor of the value he creates, and by which the master alone profits... The labourer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right in the thing he has produced.”[/FONT]-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, What is Property?, pg. 123-4
OK, I checked the website, and I read some articles, and I listened to that grandstand rant by Dylan Ratigan, and saw the banner ad for/by/about Al Gore stating "we need a non-violent Tahrir Square... and I don't see anything that moves much beyond the issue of political corruption and the undue influence of the wealthy on "our political system."
Everything seems to be about getting the "money out of politics."
I think that's a futile effort. While you think the movement is going to the left, what I see is a use of rhetoric designed to appropriate certain words to give a "left cover" for an effort that seems to be organized around not identifying capitalism as capitalism, and class as class.
I agree the US is more conservative than most countries in Europe-- but that's all the more reason to not obscure the analysis of what's happening, why it's happening, and what the response must be. And believe me "getting the money out of politics" will accomplish nothing other than keeping the money in politics.
And one more thing... when a materialist analysis of this decade is written, Tahrir Square will be recognized as a failure not for what it didn't accomplish, but for the issues it never even raised.
I assume the latter will happen, but how hard would it be to breach security with a large enough force?
As for the typical footies + cavalry, why couldn't we simply out strategize them? It's pretty simple to prepare for melee combat, and cavalry stand no chance against a proper phalanx. The worse thing would be the spray and tear gas, since those are a little harder to defend against properly.
In 1934 there were strikes and workplace occupations at the point of production. Workers fought back., this had nothing to do with begging Congress but was a direct struggle over the means of production. I would imagine there are many Revlefters who have gone to many demos.
To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget
Arundhati Roy
Lenina Rosenweg is a glorious beacon of light
I haven't read the entire thread. The purpose of any action is to raise the level of class consciousness of the working class.A march on Wall Street could be productive. What demands will be raised? Its very important to explicitly reject the Tea Party and the right.Demands could be things such as
1) Banks, financial institutions and other such enterprises open their books to public scrutiny and accountability. How many people have been made homeless while Bank of America sucked off the govt's teat?
2.) Criminal investigations into the massive theft and misuse of public monies by the banks.
3.) Bring banks under public ownership, not old style nationalization (although that might be a start) but democratic ownership of banks, hedge funds and other such criminal institutions.
The correct slogans and demands raised are very important. We are not "all in this together", they're have been big winners and losers. How do we explain that to people? An action of some sort at the Koch brother's places of businesses can be useful. Demonstrate the absurdity of libertarian and Tea Party propaganda.
Also at this stage a "Tahrir Square" style occupation of Wall Street will not work, at all. A few hotheaded anarchists will be arrested, the media will focus on how many Starbucks and yuppie boutiques had their windows smashed,the pigs will have a field day, that's all. This is not workable.
Let's focus on demands and our educative mission.
To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget
Arundhati Roy
Lenina Rosenweg is a glorious beacon of light
Shut you up? Naw, the cops will take care of that.
Not hard at all. What is hard is getting that "large enough force". If there actually were 20,000 radical and militant activists ready to combat the police, it would actually be pretty easy. The NYPD is comprised of 34,500 officers and 120 horses. That would mean that if every single calvary unit was deployed, there would be 167 people per horse. In really raw numbers, there are an estimated 11,000 officers on duty at any given time throughout the 5 boroughs. So even if 1/10 of them were in the immediate vicinity of Wall Street at the time, that's almost 20 people per officer.
So yeah, it would be pretty easy. What would not be easy would be convincing 20,000 adbuster liberals on the spot to take militant action to combat the police and shut down one of the most iconic streets in the world.
No, the worst thing that could happen would be an overzealous bloc of 200 people thinking they have the support of the other 19,800 people (assuming 20,000 show up) in fighting the police only to find themselves surrounded by the largest police force in the country.
This isn't meant to be disheartening, only realistic. Could 200 people fend off a properly barricaded area from police attacks for an extended period of time? Yeah, probably. What would be necessary though would be for those 200 people to be organized, protected by strong barricades, and free from the common American conception of all police as being Robocops with no capacity for harm or injury. Really doesn't seem all that likely. But here's to hope.
edit: Also, this is assuming that the intention is not to stage some sit-in in the middle of the road, but to definitively close off access to some of the largest financial institutions in the country, including the New York Stock Exchange.
Last edited by Fawkes; 11th August 2011 at 23:51.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
actually I fully expect if the guys who camp are determined enough that some idiot cop is going to shoot.... and when they do..... Bovine fecal matter will have an inelastic collision with the oscillating air displacer.
As opposed to you who already shut themselves up.
Look, I'm not saying this is going to be a revolutionary action. I'm not saying this is going to be successful in its demands. But, at this point we can be fairly certain that this action will happen whether we are a part of it or not. And Mari3l's right, chances are this will be allowed to occur by the city because it is an impotent mode of protest. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of working class people with legitimate desires for change will be there. There's obviously a great level of anger and frustration among the whole population. Should we just sit back and scoff at the pathetic liberal attempts at reforming "corporatocracy", or should we have a presence there and try to reach other workers feeling frustration and anger in an effort to spread class solidarity and channel that frustration and anger into future actions with truly revolutionary potential?
Given that most revlefters were somewhere between toddlers and fetuses the last time there was a riot in NYC (1992 in washington heights), I'm gonna guess no.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
Also they will undoubtedly request assistance from neighboring states and counties if they cannot control the situation. A pike per horse can keep them at bay, but what if we were to hypothetically mount them ourselves if we overwhelmed them? Also, somehow I don't feel like the NYPD wouldn't be quick to resort to extreme measures, ESPECIALLY around their beloved shrines at wall street. Rubber bullets and grenades would become a problem if you ask me.
I don't even think it's easy convincing half that many people to even show up for this event.
Actually that isn't the worst thing. The worst thing would be the overzealous police force surrounding the bloc and assaulting it relentlessly without any care for the protestors. I'm not a big fan of piggies, and my experiences with them leave me fearing the worst will come of any militant action.
Realism is more important than fantasy. We can all fantasize about fighting the cops and winning, but chances are we will be quickly out maneuvered by the piggies. With realism comes extra strategic planning, something we will need - militant or not.
Shit I wasn't even in the country then. My diapers were foreign lol.
I'm doubtful that there will be a large enough body of people willing to militantly engage police on horse back, on motorcycle, in riot gear.
This works when things are done on the fly and these 'things' or 'tactics' that work often don't do very much outside of spectacle. (St Paul). The other issue that comes to mind is space. There's only so much area to act in.
Maybe with highly trained foot soldiers with wicked shields. Maybe.
Spray, yes. The issue with the gas is that it's hard to control where it goes and I have a hard time picturing the use of gas in NY under these conditions.
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
