Can a person be a Pantheist and a Marxist ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Can a person be a Pantheist and a Marxist at the sametime my understnding is that Albert Einstein was a Socialist and a Pantheist he spoke of God but did not mean a personal being known as God ?

http://www.pantheism.net/paul/faqs.htm

http://www.pantheism.net/paul/einstein.htm

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm

[thesadmafioso]

Leon Trotsky in "The Tasks of Communist Education" (1922)

REVOLUTION AND MYSTICISM

What are the main characteristics of the revolutionist? It must be emphasised that we have no right to separate the revolutionist from the class basis upon which he has evolved, and without which is nothing. The revolutionist of our epoch, who can only be associated with the working class, possesses his special psychological characteristics, characteristics of intellect and will. If it is necessary and possible, the revolutionist shatters the historical obstructions, resorting to force for the purpose. If this is not possible, then he makes a detour, undermines and crushes, patiently and determinedly. He is a revolutionist because he does not fear to shatter obstacles and relentlessly to employ force; at the same time he knows its historical value. It is his constant endeavour to maintain his destructive and creative work at their highest pitch of activity, that is, to obtain from the given historical conditions the maximum which they are capable of yielding for the forward movement of the revolutionary class.

The revolutionist knows only external obstacles to his activity, no internal ones. That is: he has to develop within himself the capacity of estimating the arena of his activity in all its concreteness, with its positive and negative aspects, and to strike a correct political balance. But if he is internally hampered by subjective hindrances to action, if he is lacking in understanding or will power, if he is paralysed by internal discord, by religious, national, or craft prejudices, then he is at best only half a revolutionist. There are too many obstacles in the objective conditions already, and the revolutionist cannot allow himself the luxury of multiplying the objective hindrances and frictions by subjective ones. Therefore the education of the revolutionist must, above all, consist in his emancipation from that residue of ignorance and superstition, which is frequently found in a very “sensitive” consciousness. And therefore we adopt a ruthlessly irreconcilable attitude to anyone who utters a single word to the effect that mysticism or religious sentimentality might be combined with Communism. Religiousness is irreconcilable with the Marxian standpoint. We are of the opinion that atheism, as an inseparable element of the materialist view of life, is a necessary condition for the theoretical education of the revolutionist. He who believes in another world is not capable of concentrating all his passion on the transformation of this one.

Source: http://www.marxists.org/history/inte...3/7/com_ed.htm

In brief, no.

[scarletghoul]

Pantheism seems to be so vague i think its possible to combine it with any ideology tbh

[tradeunionsupporter]

Im not a Pantheist myself I agree because Religion is used to keep people oppressed.

[Smyg]

Regardless of what anyone has written, I see no problem with any religious beliefs and Marxism together, unless said beliefs directly interfers in the economical ideas.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Marxism and religion are not compatible because Marxism is a materialist view of the world. However, someone can be a marxist in their political beliefs and also be religious in believing there may be something that can not be understood at present (as long as they don't think this "other force" guides the material world directly). I can be done... (it may take a little intellectual dissonance) and personally, if you fight for the working class in a materialist way, I really don't care if you might also believe that we all eat cake after we die.

[graymouser]

Marxism is a materialist worldview. It looks at the conflict between economic classes in history, and says that this is the motive force of society. It's atheistic because it acknowledges no role in history for the intervention of mysticism and no positive role in society for its peddlers.

If by "pantheist" you mean a rigorous naturalist pantheist who acknowledges higher value, for want of a better word spiritual value, in nature - someone could have those feelings and also be a revolutionary with a Marxist outlook. Pantheism of this sort is so meaningless that it's a valid question of why you wouldn't just label yourself an atheist. If it's some kind of supernatural belief, I don't think you'd be a consistent Marxist. But that's a personal question.

[StoneFrog]

Pantheism is compatible with Marxism, Naturalist Pantheism would hold better to the materialistic elements of Marxism.

I myself believe in a duelist concept of pantheism, most of materialism i still holds true. No matter if your outlook is "compatible" with Marxism it doesn't stop you from being a communist or revolutionary.

[ZeroNowhere]

No.

[Nox]

Why the hell are you a Pantheist?

And just because Einstein mentioned the word God a few times, doesn't mean he believes in a God...

[trivas7]

Pantheism is compatible with Marxism, Naturalist Pantheism would hold better to the materialistic elements of Marxism.

I myself believe in a duelist concept of pantheism, most of materialism i still holds true. No matter if your outlook is "compatible" with Marxism it doesn't stop you from being a communist or revolutionary.

How does a natural(ist) pantheist hold a materialism view of the world? Whatever are you talking about?

I believe that there has to be a material basis to mystical experiences -- whatever that means. Mystical experiences are purely subjective and tell us nothing about the real world.

[L.A.P.]

Pantheism isn't compatible in itself. It's virtually impossible to say that all religious views of the world are equally valid and all gods exist.

[Astarte]

Leon Trotsky in "The Tasks of Communist Education" (1922)



Source: http://www.marxists.org/history/inte...3/7/com_ed.htm

In brief, no.

Trotsky should stick to writing about Degenerated Workers' States, Stalinist Schools of Falsification, and Permanent Revolutions.

Time after time, if you examine the historical record, you will find leftist revolutionary groups and movements with esoteric flavorings.

[StoneFrog]

How does a natural(ist) pantheist hold a materialism view of the world? Whatever are you talking about?

I believe that there has to be a material basis to mystical experiences -- whatever that means. Mystical experiences are purely subjective and tell us nothing about the real world.

Everything is of one material that is physical, and everything physical is god. When thinking in terms of Pantheism you have to throw the notion of god in the sense of how Christian and Islam define god; god in a naturalist pantheist sense is expresses via the relationship between objects. Its not some god that tells you what is right and wrong, god just is.

May be better coming from an actual Naturalist Pantheist i know theres one floating about here.

Pantheism isn't compatible in itself. It's virtually impossible to say that all religious views of the world are equally valid and all gods exist.

huh??

[trivas7]

Everything is of one material that is physical, and everything physical is god.

This is quibbling at best and nonsense at worse. Perhaps this expresses the fact that matter is absolute; nevertheless, matter is not a god.

[StoneFrog]

This is quibbling at best and nonsense at worse. Perhaps this expresses the fact that matter is absolute; nevertheless, matter is not a god.

Im sure you think so, but nevertheless Naturalistic Pantheism is compatible with Marxism and Materialism.

[trivas7]

Im sure you think so, but nevertheless Naturalistic Pantheism is compatible with Marxism and Materialism.

On what grounds?

[Astarte]

This is quibbling at best and nonsense at worse. Perhaps this expresses the fact that matter is absolute; nevertheless, matter is not a god.

Well, there are many different theological takes on this. I would argue that the fact there is matter means there is a God, a Force, a Tao, a Supraphysical hegemonic generating force over the entire universe that transcends the human sensory system, etc. I look at it kind of like there is the material world and then there is mind - that is, when was the last time you found a physical table, or a chair, or a tree in your mind? The mind can originate an idea of how one can manipulate matter into a certain handicraft, or plant a tree, or even try to genetically engineer a tree. So, in this way all Matter comes from "Mind the Maker". Its like how Minerva was borne of Jupiter's forehead.

Its not hard to separate one's spiritual beliefs from their analysis of society. Holding spiritual beliefs doesn't make you understand dialectical materialism, or historical materialism any less soundly - in fact you probably are a lot better equipped to understanding Hegel and the dialectical system which Historical Materialism sprang from - in this way you can see the trees for the entire forest of the historical epoch.

[Revolution starts with U]

Well, there are many different theological takes on this. I would argue that the fact there is matter means there is a God, a Force, a Tao, a Supraphysical hegemonic generating force over the entire universe that transcends the human sensory system, etc.

And how do you get from A to B? You can't just say "a proves b" you have to make a causal chain. This is my problem with the new age movement; they try to couch spirituality in scientific language and only end up muddying both.
How does A logically lead to B? What evidence are you basing your definitions of A and B on? Nothing. It just sounds good, so it "proves it" to you.
(Waiting for insert of some vague appeal to authority)

[Property Is Robbery]

I consider myself to be a Pantheist of sorts and I align myself with Marxist economics.

*Commence personal attacks, now*