Nick Griffin to speak at Trinity College Ireland

[black magick hustla]

Those arguing that fascists are irrelevant, your partially right especially in the south where there is no organised fascist party like the BNP but part of the reason there is practically no fascist presence is because of the work of anti-fascists in stopping their organising whenever they show their faces and by stopping people like David Irving and Nick Griffin from having a platform to spew hate speech and recruit.

i think antifas have a tendency to overemphasize their effect, they always claim "fascists" don't exist here and there because they punched them out. anyway, 1) nick griffin is not a fascist, 2) violence against minorities and immigrants is as ancient as pyramids and can be made manifest in many ideological forms. you can't "beat" hatred out of the streets, in the way the state can't beat "terrorism" out of the streets.

The argument about fascists not holding state power is irrelevant, where fascists exist there are racist attacks, in 2009 in Belfast the houses of several Roma families were attacked and had their windows smashed in by suspected C18, no state power necessary.

So how should socialists react to fascism, by denouncing it as irrelevant? or perhaps like socialists did in 2008 by organising enough opposition to stop David Irving speaking in Cork and in Belfast 2009 by showing solidarity with the Roma under attack and organising the defence of the homes?

violence against roma and feelings against roma people are rampant, and fascism has very little to do with it. fascism is not a meaningful force today in the UK.

[Hit The North]

1) nick griffin is not a fascist,

Eh up, what is this? Why do you say he is not a fascist?

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[FONT=Arial]For all the carefully cultivated "reasonableness" of his public persona today, Griffin has a similar far-right background to Tyndall. He was a national organiser for the NF in the 1970s, and in the 1980s was heavily influenced by Roberto Fiore, a leader of the Italian fascist organisation the Armed Revolutionary Nuclei (NAR), who fled to Britain to avoid prosecution over the 1980 bombing of Bologna railway station in which 85 people died. Throughout the 1980s Griffin was a leading figure in what remained of the NF, promoting a NAR-inspired "Third Positionist" ideology that claimed to offer an alternative to both capitalism and communism. Griffin and the Third Positionists advocated a "political soldier" strategy which rejected the 1970s NF’s objectives of mass membership and electoral success in favour of building an elite corps of professional fascist "revolutionaries".

However, as the NF fragmented in an outbreak of political infighting, the Third Positionists broke away in 1989 to form a separate grouping, and by 1991 Griffin had abandoned organised fascist politics altogether. After a brief period in the political wilderness he joined the BNP in 1995 and became editor of Tyndall’s magazine Spearhead. Ironically, in view of subsequent developments, Tyndall brought Griffin into the BNP to act as a counterweight to an opposition headed by Tony Lecomber and others who favoured playing down the fascist character of the party in order to establish a broader popular appeal.

Griffin used Spearhead to denounce the "spiral of sickly moderation" and scorned the idea of the BNP projecting an image of restraint and respectability. Commenting on the party’s earlier success in a council by-election in Millwall in 1993, Griffin wrote that the voters had not backed "a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan ‘Defend Rights for Whites’ with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]
[/FONT][/FONT]http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/latest/BNP2.html

[Anarchist Skinhead]

with a rise of EDL I beg to differ my man..

[Sasha]

i think antifas have a tendency to overemphasize their effect, they always claim "fascists" don't exist here and there because they punched them out. anyway, 1) nick griffin is not a fascist, 2) violence against minorities and immigrants is as ancient as pyramids and can be made manifest in many ideological forms. you can't "beat" hatred out of the streets, in the way the state can't beat "terrorism" out of the streets.

The argument about fascists not holding state power is irrelevant, where fascists exist there are racist attacks, in 2009 in Belfast the houses of several Roma families were attacked and had their windows smashed in by suspected C18, no state power necessary

your first paragraph is at direct odds with your second, but this is because you misunderstand anti-fascist theory and praxis.
We, like you. say that "where fascists exist there are (racist) attacks"
But we, from experience, also know that the more organised the fascist presence, the more these attacks happen, both in absolute numbers as in visciousness.
We don't pretend we can beat hatred of the street but we know we can beat fascist organizing from the streets. And to take your silly terrorism analogy, destroying the more organised terrorists, attacking their infrastructures, their finances, their communications, their command structures etc etc all have had very tangible effects. Ofcourse they won't destroy terrorism and we won't destroy hate but to say either campaign had zero effects and is a completely pointless affair is delusional.
But to make an analogy of my own: most workers organising like unionizing, striking, attacks on scabs etc will not destroy capitalism at all but they do fulfill an esential function in creating the operating space in which the struggle against capitalism can organize.

[bricolage]

your first paragraph is at direct odds with your second, but this is because you misunderstand anti-fascist theory and praxis.
We, like you. say that "where fascists exist there are (racist) attacks"

The quoting went wrong, "The argument about fascists not holding state power is irrelevant, where fascists exist there are racist attacks, in 2009 in Belfast the houses of several Roma families were attacked and had their windows smashed in by suspected C18, no state power necessary." was posted by Anarion.

[brigadista]

he wont be driving his Skoda...

http://liveraf.wordpress.com/2011/09...-griffins-car/

[HEAD ICE]

anti-immigrant and racist rhetoric, the kind I see from the BNP, often manifests itself in fascism but is not an indicator of fascism. I don't believe the BNP is fascist. They are anti-immigrant and racist, but so is bourgeois democracy. While the USA was "fighting fascism" in WWII it was perfectly legal in many parts of this country to hang black people from a tree, put Japanese americans in concentration camps, arrest and imprison communists. Yet the USA never was fascist. To say all these things go against the ideals of liberalism and that America was not a "true democracy" because of it is to buy into the lie of bourgeois democracy.

[black magick hustla]

We don't pretend we can beat hatred of the street but we know we can beat fascist organizing from the streets.

ask any british antifa and they will tell you how their glorious army of bootstrapped oi skinheads destroyed the national front, while in reality the nf dissappeared because the "respectable right wing" thatcherites stole their thunder.

And to take your silly terrorism analogy, destroying the more organised terrorists, attacking their infrastructures, their finances, their communications, their command structures etc etc all have had very tangible effects. Ofcourse they won't destroy terrorism and we won't destroy hate but to say either campaign had zero effects and is a completely pointless affair is delusional.

*shrugs* maybe. or maybe if there are is a strong atmosphere of hate etc it will simply get absorbed into a 10000x more effective organ, like the state (as it happened in the 80s, and is happening to day with the rise of the nationalist right wing like the french national front), than a bunch of metheads, nonces, and assorted lowlives that constitute a lot of the "fascist gutter right" in many countries.

But to make an analogy of my own: most workers organising like unionizing, striking, attacks on scabs etc will not destroy capitalism at all but they do fulfill an esential function in creating the operating space in which the struggle against capitalism can organize.

except one constitutes the self movement of the class, and the other reduces itself to subcultural gang warfare. and dont tell me it doesnt, you as an "antifa skinhead" know damn well.

[brigadista]

tories ,lib dems and NLabour doing it all for the BNP makes them redundant

[Anarchist Skinhead]

I know damn well black magic that you should do something better with your life than troll this forum, you never know, you might like it .

[Sasha]

@ bmh: "antifa skinhead"?
A: i haven't identified as a skinhead for ages
B: I became aware of the importance of antifascism when I was about 9, when our frontdoor was dabbed with swastika's and anti-Jewish slurs and I found out what happend to my familly in WW2 and before that in the Spanish civilwar, my short dabble in the skinhead culture came about 8 years later.
Let me extend an heartfelt fuck you to you...

[black magick hustla]

I know damn well black magic that you should do something better with your life than troll this forum, you never know, you might like it .

thats cute. i barely post in here. whatever "anarchist skinhead" and self proclaimed "antifa hooligan" lol

[black magick hustla]

@ bmh: "antifa skinhead"?
A: i haven't identified as a skinhead for ages
B: I became aware of the importance of antifascism when I was about 9, when our frontdoor was dabbed with swastika's and anti-Jewish slurs and I found out what happend to my familly in WW2 and before that in the Spanish civilwar, my short dabble in the skinhead culture came about 8 years later.
Let me extend an heartfelt fuck you to you...

you didn't address any argument

[black magick hustla]

heartfelt fuck you to you

hey dont be cute, i got infracted by you for the same shit,

[MilitantTrot]

ahem... back to Nick Griffin.

I'm a Socialist Party member based in Trinity College and I'm trying, along with others, to organize a campaign to keep him out. Would appreciate any help.

Political and organisational meeting organized for Tuesday Septmeber 27th, 4pm, room 3051 of the Arts Block in Trinity. Anyone who can make it along should definitely. We'll be discussing whether and how to keep him out of Trinity, and hopefully building as broad-based a campaign as possible.

[Sasha]

you didn't address any argument

what argument? that antifascism is nothing more than subcultural warfare?.that was not an argument, that was a statement. and i did address it, i showed you that for at least me its about among other things; an principle of never again, better safe than sorry and personal antagonism.
or your claim that attacking scabs and "pinkerton" heavies/hitsquats is something completely different than attacking the fash?
I think you really dont understand the function of fash in todays society and thats because you have no bloody clue what it is to try to organize leftist activity in a town with an dominant neo-nazi presence.
you should really take a trip to, lets say dortmund, one day.
people there are getting murdered for being leftists, no not even because they are in anti-fascism, just for being presumed leftists...
go look in greece, who do you think are the guys stabbing activists and migrants while under police protection? go look in columbia, who do you think form the death-squadrons that kill off the unionists? russia? eastern europe? venuzuela? turkey?
or closer to home, you think its a coincidence that mad dog adair became a posterboy for first combat 18 and now the EDL?
the fash are todays pinkertons, destroying their organisations is essential to create and protect the space in which workers can work and organize to ultimately overthrow capitalism.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

well said Psycho.
Alternatively you can just clean the thread a bit , i am sure trolling tosser qill quickly get bored.

[Sasha]

hey dont be cute, i got infracted by you for the same shit,

No you didnt, you got infracted for repeaetitly dropping the same oneliners without engaging debate.

Now I don't know if it is that your neck of the woods really is that different, or that you are dogmaticaly repeating left-com positions without realizing that the left-com dogma's about anti-fascism are an rejection of bourgeois class-collaborationist anti-fascism and not an usefull analysis of radical autonomist praxis and theory, or that you are just masquerading cowardice but you should really make an effort or just stay out of this section. Because at this moment you are just being disrespectful about other leftists their idealism and activism. Even if you would disagree with feminism you wouldn't be pulling this in the women's struggles section would you? Then also don't pull it here. You are free to disagree with antifascism but don't be a dick about it please...

[Sasha]

well said Psycho.
Alternatively you can just clean the thread a bit , i am sure trolling tosser qill quickly get bored.

Euhm, Thanx for the feather up my bum but you are not helping, verbal warning for flaming.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

just calling things as they are, perhapps in less polite way. But ok, warning accepted, I will behave
@MilitantTror- whilst I am too far away to help myself, good luck wiht it.. I don't think the question should be "whether" to keep him away, but "how" to keep him away.