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So I am re-posting this from revleft's Romani Solidarity Group since it will probably not get much attention there.
I think the All-Russian Romani Union, sometimes called the All-Russian Gypsy Union, is an interesting aspect of history that is often overlooked and ignored. It goes to show the level of marginalization of Roma issues, in that, in other discussions of nationality issues/deportations in the Soviet Union I have had here, while generally there is awareness of crimes committed against other nationalities, few would seem to even be aware of the plight of Soviet Romanies. For example, this (apologetic) article on the issue of forced resettlement, highlights that Krushchev's secret speech left unmentioned Volga Germans, Crimean Tartars and Meshketian Turks, yet itself makes no mention of the repression against Romani people!
As the EU has declared 2005-2015, the "Decade of Roma Inclusion", and yet we are over half-way through this decade and all over Europe, Romani people continue to be one of the most highly marginalized, excluded, impoverished and repressed nationalities, continue to face unjust deportations and pogroms, it shows capitalism's utter incapacity to end Roma-Sinti marginalization. As Malcolm X said, "You can't have capitalism without racism." I hope that this old example of Roma people rising up with the rest of the international working class to embrace socialist revolution and liberation can serve as some form of inspiration that a better world is possible for Romani people and for everyone.
I would also quite like to hear from our resident Stalinists how dissolving the union and declaring entire ethnic groups to be "enemies of socialism" could possibly be reconciled with genuine socialism. How clear a look at the evolution of Soviet national policy makes it to see that the revolution degenerated and was betrayed !!
As with all nationality threads, it's quite simple: as Terry Martin notes in his book The Affirmative Action Empire, ethnic groups not associated with the USSR and its territories were considered breeding grounds for spies and saboteurs. Even Russians who worked in Manchuria were under suspicion simply for having connections outside of Soviet territory. It was no different for Finns, Germans, Koreans, etc.
As for Soviet nationalities policy, last time I checked ethnic groups gained in strength in each SSR, ASSR, etc. throughout the 1930's as educational opportunities opened up. So if you were Kazakh, Tuvan or Ukrainian you'd be fine. If you were Romanian, Iranian or from America then you weren't going to fare too well.
I don't see how the economic base of society is altered by the deportations, nor can I see how it shows that the revolution "degenerated," much less "betrayed."
* h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
* rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
* nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
* Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
How were Romani people not associated with the USSR or its territories? They had been there for hundreds of years. Who exactly would Gypsies be spying and sabotaging for? The Nazis whose goal was to exterminate all of them?
For that matter, how were Volga Germans "not associated with the USSR and its territories" considering that they had their own soviet republic up until 1941?
Why were not all Russians suspect because their ethnic group had connections outside of Soviet territory?
Oh, so under a genuine socialist system, your ethnic background determines how well you will fare.
The deportations indicate that Soviet society was no longer under a dictatorship of the proletariat; instead the bureaucracy reverted to a dictatorship based on national interests. The working class is unique to no one nation, so a dictatorship which places the interests of one nation above those of other nations is no longer proletarian, no longer genuinely socialist. When policies were made on the basis of Russian national chauvinism instead of international working class interests, the state no longer had the best interests of the international proletariat in mind, and it is thus was degenerate and had betrayed the original principals of the socialist revolution.
Though i dont know much about the situation of soviet Roma, there was a youth's revolutionary/civil war tribute film "The Elusive Avengers" in which a leading role was a Roma youth. I believe it was a Kruschchov or Brezhnev era film.
FKA Vacant
"snook up behind him and took his koran, he said sumthin about burnin the koran. i was like DUDE YOU HAVE NO KORAN and ran off." - Jacob Isom, Amarillo Resident.
Well in the case of Iranians, Afghans, etc. they were accused of being British agents. In the case of Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese they were accused of being agents of Japan. In the case of Germans they were accused of being associated with Nazi Germany. Poles with Poland, etc., etc.
They were seen as being particularly susceptible to Nazism. There's no evidence of discussions on dissolving their republic pre-1941.
It did? I'm pretty sure Russia was the heart of the USSR.
No, under the conditions of the Soviet Union, that's the way things were.
How? People accuse Lenin of "genocide" based on how the Don Cossacks were handled. The national interests were subordinate to socialist interests, which was why nationalist deviators were executed during the Great Purges.
It didn't make policies on "national interests." They were seen as spies and saboteurs, ergo they were shot. Simple as that. Nazi Germany shouldn't have invaded the USSR, Finland should have not adopted a pro-German foreign policy, the British and French should not have conducted intrigues in Soviet territory, etc. But they all did, and nothing could stop them; they were capitalist states opposed to the USSR. The Soviet state replied in kind, and nationalities sharing ties with those states were subsequently targeted as well. Thus Finnish was denounced as a "fascist language" and banned for about two years.
Dimitrov recorded in his diary Stalin speaking of the Soviet Union and its relationship with the Russian Empire. Here are Stalin's words from November 7, 1937:
(The Diary of Georgi Dimitrov: 1933-1949, p. 65.)
* h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
* rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
* nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
* Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
so because you happen to have roots in an other nation its ok to be accused(and probally punished) of being a spy, even though 99,9% wernt even thinking about becoming a spy or saboteur in any way. that is nationalism as it worst.
please tell you're not supporting these actions, a "fascist language" thats so bs. you know what we call this in germany? "sippenhaft"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft
All i want is a Marxist Hunk.
It is true that labor produces for the rich wonderful things – but for the worker it produces privation. It produces palaces – but for the worker, hovels. It produces beauty – but for the worker, deformity. It replaces labor by machines, but it throws one section of the workers back into barbarous types of labor and it turns the other section into a machine. It produces intelligence – but for the worker, stupidity, cretinism.
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
Obviously I don't endorse the concept of a "fascist language." I also fail to see how what the Soviets did was some sort of Russian nationalism.
As for the German thing, collective punishment isn't something unique. In Albania if someone was convicted of sabotage, anti-communism, etc. their entire family was usually targeted as well.
* h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
* rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
* nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
* Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
i didnt say russian nationalism, i said nationalism. i mean what is it then when human beings are judged by their "national heritage", because of that heritage being punished(without commiting a crime) being purged. isnt that nationalism, judging people because of "their nation"? really what else is it? the only other word that omes to my mind when i read about this is racism.
i know its not unique but its bad and terrible, and i dont see collective punisment as a good tool for socialism in any way. things like collective punishment should be one of the first things to go in a socialistic society. what good can it bring to punish someone because of their family, their heritage?
All i want is a Marxist Hunk.
It is true that labor produces for the rich wonderful things – but for the worker it produces privation. It produces palaces – but for the worker, hovels. It produces beauty – but for the worker, deformity. It replaces labor by machines, but it throws one section of the workers back into barbarous types of labor and it turns the other section into a machine. It produces intelligence – but for the worker, stupidity, cretinism.
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
And the Roma were accused of being disloyal, backwards, nomadic thieves with no nation-state to call a homeland and no stable culture? We see where such stereotypes lead...
This is just another stereotype though, "Germans = Nazis". I find it unbelievable that every last Soviet German was a secret Nazi spy.
As you said, there were Russians with connections in Manchuria, therefore their ethnic group had connections outside Soviet national territory. One can only chalk it up to Russian national chauvinism that all Russians "themselves and their kin" were not suspected of disloyalty to socialism.
The way things were wasn't guided by socialist principles then. Nor can you say that it was only due to the war that deportations happened, since they continued after the war.