Scientists discover evidence for sexual identity!

[Dhul Fiqar]

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/s...reut/index.html

LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- Sexual identity is wired into the genes, which discounts the concept that homosexuality and transgender sexuality are a choice, California researchers reported on Monday.

"Our findings may help answer an important question -- why do we feel male or female?" Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine, said in a statement. "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome."

His team has identified 54 genes in mice that may explain why male and female brains look and function differently.

Since the 1970s, scientists have believed that estrogen and testosterone were wholly responsible for sexually organizing the brain. Recent evidence, however, indicates that hormones cannot explain everything about the sexual differences between male and female brains.

Published in the latest edition of the journal Molecular Brain Research, the UCLA discovery may also offer physicians an improved tool for gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.

Mild cases of malformed genitalia occur in 1 percent of all births -- about 3 million cases. More severe cases -- where doctors can't inform parents whether they had a boy or girl -- occur in one in 3,000 births.

"If physicians could predict the gender of newborns with ambiguous genitalia at birth, we would make less mistakes in gender assignment," Vilain said.

Using two genetic testing methods, the researchers compared the production of genes in male and female brains in embryonic mice -- long before the animals developed sex organs.

They found 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains, prior to hormonal influence. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.

"We discovered that the male and female brains differed in many measurable ways, including anatomy and function." Vilain said.

For example, the two hemispheres of the brain appeared more symmetrical in females than in males. According to Vilain, the symmetry may improve communication between both sides of the brain, leading to enhanced verbal expressiveness in females.

"This anatomical difference may explain why women can sometimes articulate their feelings more easily than men," he said.

The scientists plan to conduct further studies to determine the specific role for each of the 54 genes they identified.

"Our findings may explain why we feel male or female, regardless of our actual anatomy," said Vilain. "These discoveries lend credence to the idea that being transgender --- feeling that one has been born into the body of the wrong sex -- is a state of mind."

[Dhul Fiqar]

Note to moderators: sorry but that sticky thing will kill anything that goes into it. I waited long and hard last night to get a reply to this thread and when I came back it was merged into a sticky no one will ever read - I really really want to highlight this particular story and encourage a debate on it - not just report it.

So basically if you just want people to know about something - it might go in the stickie - but there is never going to be an actual debate of any real pace in there.

So hands off this thread - I don't want it to die - because it is an integral part of the homosexuality debate that is going on in OI at the moment

--- G.

[Rastafari]

fuckin' terrorist

[Dhul Fiqar]

Sorry to step on your toes - but I really don't see any fast-paced discussion or debate happening in a sticky any time soon

Feel free to curse my name, though =D

--- G.

[Rastafari]

yeah. You just flew your proverbial airplane into my thread.

just fucking with you, in a straight way, though

[Mazzen]

Do the findings discuss bisexuality?..How does one explain bisexuality? You'd figure that they know since they found out why some people are homosexual.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Well - yes and no. The findings of this study mainly relate to black and white "gender identity" - it is only speculated that part of this identity includes sexual identity (i.e. which gender you prefer).

However - in primates there is widespread homosexual behaviour but very little homosexual preference. So you might argue that bisexual behaviour (i.e. sexual exploration with both sexes) is a biological norm in up to half of all primates. Gender identity and sexual preference are two seperate issues - albeit not totally seperate from the whole.

Basically - this study only means there are a few new answers and a shitload of new questios - but it does confirm that most likely none of this has to do with "deciding" anything - it is biologically pre-ordained. That is the real story here - in my view

--- G.

[Iron Star]

The bad side - parents will be able to abort homosexual or transgendered fetuses before they are even born. This makes the process of eugenics in relation to sexual and gender identity a whole lot easier. Needless to say, the Nazis would have a field day with this. Not only is homosexuality now 'curable', but it can virtually be eliminated out of a population.

[bush youth]

"These discoveries lend credence to the idea that being transgender --- feeling that one has been born into the body of the wrong sex -- is a state of mind."

Took them a while to figure that out <_<

Well I&#39;m glad it&#39;s cleared up. That plus the fact that that 1 in 10 people are homosexual, and it would be a whole lot more if their genes were able to be passed on/reproduced, using the term &#39;gay&#39; as an insult should no longer hold any significance.

The bad side - parents will be able to abort homosexual or transgendered fetuses before they are even born. This makes the process of eugenics in relation to sexual and gender identity a whole lot easier. Needless to say, the Nazis would have a field day with this. Not only is homosexuality now &#39;curable&#39;, but it can virtually be eliminated out of a population.

Eh, damn them&#33;.. The great thing about homsexuals is that they piss off the nazis and the homophobes... hopefully Nazis stay in such a minority that they won&#39;t eliminate homos... I think it&#39;s pretty safe to say that they&#39;re too dumb to start a revolution (reaction rather) without Hitler.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

sure... whatever, the name of the scientist is Vilain.
...bastard

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Iron Star@Oct 23 2003, 01:59 AM
The bad side - parents will be able to abort homosexual or transgendered fetuses before they are even born. This makes the process of eugenics in relation to sexual and gender identity a whole lot easier. Needless to say, the Nazis would have a field day with this. Not only is homosexuality now &#39;curable&#39;, but it can virtually be eliminated out of a population.

I agree.
When I was reading this though, I was mostly concerned that doctors could influance the gender of the soon to be born. If people could influance the gender identity or of their offspring, this could lead to horrible experiments. I can see many bad results from playing with someones sexual "programing". There is a thin line between fixing the "ambiguous" sexualy developed babies and "fixing" undesirable sexual characteristics. This idea is unsettling.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Interresting article, but the possibilities of it are pretty scary.

Further research will certainly find more genes which decide how a person is born and his character. Making it possible for parents to decide every factor of their children. The Government could make rules for the character and shape of it&#39;s citizens. Even organisations like the army could order people - supersoldiers.

Maybe even devices to screen someone on things like homoïsm, leftism, etc throug genes found in their body - tighter government control.

[[email protected]]

Hectic&#33;This is a preety insane topic to discuss&#33; I mean what the fuck,when the child is born it will definitely have no choice,but to be conditioned in a certain way.Doctors can be wrong&#33; Parents will either abort or give up the "homosexual"child or perhaps they could keep it and then raise it in a gay or lesbian conditioned way. I honestly think that humans are conditioned to behave in certain ways and therefore adopt certain ways of living it is only the minority who will seek a different way of living. I mean the "homosexual" foetus could grow up to be heterosexual then what would be the arguement for that-yes it&#39;s called conditioning/socialization. Regardless,there could be som truth to this little theory

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Well, this is very interesting. I think that recent developments in the field of genetic engineering have given rise to a number of new moral dilemmas. I&#39;d hate to sound like some kind of anti-science religious preacher (I&#39;m actually a scientist myself), but my personal opinion is that genetic engineering has to be regulated and monitered very carefully because it can have potentially disasterous consequences.

The whole concept of cloning humans, fiddling with your baby&#39;s genes to determine the colour of his/her eyes, their physical and mental ability or theie sexuality is extremely frightening because by doing this you are stripping humans of their impulsiveness, unpredictability and most importantly their own free will. How can you act freely if you pre-programmed to behave in a certain way according to a set number of inputs. You become nothing more than a mass produced robot with human flesh. And invariably, the rich guy will always be able to purchase the latest model human and we&#39;ll live in a world where rich people are not only better off financially, but aslo physically, mentally and psychologically enhanced.

I am all for using genetic engineering to cure people with terminal or incurable illness, but that I think is as far as it should go.

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by Iron Star@Oct 22 2003, 06:59 PM
The bad side - parents will be able to abort homosexual or transgendered fetuses before they are even born. This makes the process of eugenics in relation to sexual and gender identity a whole lot easier. Needless to say, the Nazis would have a field day with this. Not only is homosexuality now &#39;curable&#39;, but it can virtually be eliminated out of a population.

There is actually a movie based exactly on this concept, about a couple having a child and discovering it would be homosexual. The husband wanted to abort it, he was Jewish {it matters because it plays into his home life, where is father tries to explain to him that just because you can wipe something of the face of the planet and decide what is right and wrong in your sphere doesn&#39;t mean that it is okay to do} but yah the wife decides to keep the baby and the two split apart over this.

[honest intellectual]

The idea that sexuality can not be chosen is obviously wrong. If it was entirely a matter of genetics, how could you explain the fact that the proportions of homosexuals/bisexuals/heterosexuals varies over time? I mean, more people might have engaged in homosexual behaviour in the swingin&#39; sixties or in ancient Greece, but that can&#39;t be explained by gentics. And what about &#39;the rise of party lesbianism&#39;? Of course sexuality is chosen, it&#39;s frikkin obvious

[bush youth]

Originally posted by honest intellectual@Nov 8 2003, 08:40 PM
The idea that sexuality can not be chosen is obviously wrong. If it was entirely a matter of genetics, how could you explain the fact that the proportions of homosexuals/bisexuals/heterosexuals varies over time? I mean, more people might have engaged in homosexual behaviour in the swingin&#39; sixties or in ancient Greece, but that can&#39;t be explained by gentics. And what about &#39;the rise of party lesbianism&#39;? Of course sexuality is chosen, it&#39;s frikkin obvious

Possibly, it&#39;s not that more people have engaged in homosexual behavious in the 60&#39;s or ancient greece, rather more people opened up to it and admitted that they were.
The difference between today and the 60&#39;s is that today, people aren&#39;t as accepting with the issue.
I know if I were homosexual, I would not want anyone to know it and I&#39;m not the only one..
Adding on to that, why would so many people choose to be gay anyways? There are homosexual people who are ashamed with their sexuality because it&#39;s &#39;socially unnacceptable&#39;, some have even killed themselves because of it.

[The Children of the Revolution]

The idea that sexuality can not be chosen is obviously wrong.

Agreed. Choice of sexuality is based on personal choice and the society in which a person lives - not only was Ancient Greece [in]famous for it, but pre-Renaissance Italy too. The gene pool of most of Europe was, at this point, fairly similar. And yet homosexual (or bisexual) behaviour was only observed to excess in Italy.

This "evidence" seems to me to be an excuse for science to invade another aspect of our culture and interfere. Science should keep away from such issues.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by bush youth+Nov 9 2003, 08:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bush youth @ Nov 9 2003, 08:21 PM)

honest intellectual

@Nov 8 2003, 08:40 PM
The idea that sexuality can not be chosen is obviously wrong. If it was entirely a matter of genetics, how could you explain the fact that the proportions of homosexuals/bisexuals/heterosexuals varies over time? I mean, more people might have engaged in homosexual behaviour in the swingin&#39; sixties or in ancient Greece, but that can&#39;t be explained by gentics. And what about &#39;the rise of party lesbianism&#39;? Of course sexuality is chosen, it&#39;s frikkin obvious

Possibly, it&#39;s not that more people have engaged in homosexual behavious in the 60&#39;s or ancient greece, rather more people opened up to it and admitted that they were.
The difference between today and the 60&#39;s is that today, people aren&#39;t as accepting with the issue.
I know if I were homosexual, I would not want anyone to know it and I&#39;m not the only one..
Adding on to that, why would so many people choose to be gay anyways? There are homosexual people who are ashamed with their sexuality because it&#39;s &#39;socially unnacceptable&#39;, some have even killed themselves because of it. [/b]

"more people opened up to it and admitted that they were."
I agree, in my circumstances I wouldn&#39;t have let my sexuality be known if I wasn&#39;t heterosexul, maybe I would have by now but I would have had to stuggle to a great extent. I am just lucky in that respect but I know many people that have accepting family members and friends, still, they have a really hard time in our society. I would like to see all of these oppressed people stand up to the system that degrades them and prove to everyone that they are people just as heterosexuals are. Over ten percent of the populace could do it without any doubt.
"people aren&#39;t as accepting with the issue."
True, due to homophpbia, promoted by certain churches that focus on oppressive retoric using only the face of religion, weilding it as a tool to oppress groups of people where ever possible. While many churches feeds off of bigotry and hate to maintain power over the people, the ruling class buys into the buisiness of such a church. I would say, if there was no such thing as capitalism, chuches would sease to be so powerful as oppressive institutions.
"There are homosexual people who are ashamed with their sexuality because it&#39;s &#39;socially unnacceptable&#39;, some have even killed themselves because of it."
Yes, if you considered one of the core bioliogical drives of your person to be "wrong," then why would you want to live? How anyone can attempt to make homosexual people think that their existance is a crime of nature, is beyond my understanding. The ignorance and hate that propigates the destruction of so many people is just wrong by any messure, yet this is within the profit margins of capitalism.
If sexuality was a choice, I might decide to be gay, to fight side by side with all of my friends that take the brunt of homophobia but because it is my nature, I cannot change my sexuality.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Man - a lot of baseless unsubstantiated bullshit built up in this thread since I checked it last.

Fact: sexual behaviour can be chosen.

Fact: sexual preference cannot be chosen.

--- G.