Isn't communism too idealistic?

[spens]

No.

Anyway the point you're struggling to make here was adressed by Bakunin himself when he said "yeah sure whatever if I wanna know about boots i'll talk to a boot maker or some shit who cares"

"whatever, who cares" is a good solution.

That doesn't address the point that there is unequal access to the means of production and the consequences. It seems to me that a division of labor works against what the communist idea is working towards.

[hatzel]

Well if you want to force everybody to be exactly as good at playing piano as the rest of the world, then be my guest. And if you want to sit at home crying because somebody plays the piano better than you, again, be my guest.

Just remember that none of that stuff actually makes the blindest bit of difference to anything when it comes to the big questions like politics, society, economy, anything like that...

[#FF0000]

"whatever, who cares" is a good solution.

It works fine for a non-problem.

That doesn't address the point that there is unequal access to the means of production and the consequences. It seems to me that a division of labor works against what the communist idea is working towards.

Which is why people involved with this highly technical sort of work might get some kind of extra benefit. If that's even necessary. I don't know the details of these kind of highly technical jobs, but if they're more about creative problem-solving and that kind of thing, rather than about doing the same simple task over and over and over again, then it might not even be necessary.

[tradeunionsupporter]

In my opinion no.

[spens]

It works fine for a non-problem.

The analogy works fine when you are talking about shoemaking. Modern industry is just a tiny bit more complicated.

Which is why people involved with this highly technical sort of work might get some kind of extra benefit. If that's even necessary. I don't know the details of these kind of highly technical jobs, but if they're more about creative problem-solving and that kind of thing, rather than about doing the same simple task over and over and over again, then it might not even be necessary.

It is more about analytical problem solving. You need to have a specific knowledge base, math skills and the ability to logically solve problems.

We might have a shortage of people willing to go to school and study fluid dynamics for years so they can be a glorified plumber in industry.

[#FF0000]

The analogy works fine when you are talking about shoemaking. Modern industry is just a tiny bit more complicated.

You would be surprised

[Zav]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

Who decides what your ability or need is? It would take some sort of position of power to determine who is in need and who has ability. I am in the belief that power naturally corrupts and tends to find ways to increase and consolidate power. After time, you are left with those who have consolidated power to abuse, and those who don't.

You do for the most part decide your need and ability, though obviously excessive or lazy abuse of this will be addressed by the community. Power in Communism is absolutely equal. There is no hierarchy, and no one can gain any more power, rendering the institution of power as largely irrelevant. This power structure cannot result in corruption.

[spens]

You would be surprised

Modern industry is far more complicated than shoe making in the 1800's.

It seems as though many people here have a really simplified view of modern manufacturing.

[#FF0000]

Modern industry is far more complicated than shoe making in the 1800's.

It seems as though many people here have a really simplified view of modern manufacturing.

The manufacturing part isn't complicated. The machines might be, and the whole process might just be kind of a pain, but when I was working at one plant, we had necessary machines break for hours or even entire shifts on a regular basis and we still were well ahead of schedule, producing about fifty thousand more units than was projected.

It takes very, very, very little to produce so much nowadays.

The complicated part, I think, is the logistics of it all. But manufacturing? That's nothing.

[Bud Struggle]

The complicated part, I think, is the logistics of it all. But manufacturing? That's nothing.

You are completely right there.

[spens]

The manufacturing part isn't complicated. The machines might be, and the whole process might just be kind of a pain, but when I was working at one plant, we had necessary machines break for hours or even entire shifts on a regular basis and we still were well ahead of schedule, producing about fifty thousand more units than was projected.

It takes very, very, very little to produce so much nowadays.

The complicated part, I think, is the logistics of it all. But manufacturing? That's nothing.

If it was so simple, were you the one repairing the machines when they broke?

Getting the machines up, running and maintained is the hard part. Being a button masher when the machines are working is the easy part. There are also many more complicated industries than the one you worked in, for example almost any chemical manufacturing plant.

Your example is like me saying that a car is simple because I know how to drive one. It is so simple that I have someone else repair it when it stops working.

[Cuchitrilero]

Hi. I stop reading at the third page so sorry if I'm repeating...

I have the same question but I want to put it in basic economic terms. Theoretically, in a neo-classical free market, movement of prices clear excess supply/demand in order to reach an equilibrium point. Now, how will excess be eliminated under communism if no price mechanism exist? This is again related to that supply is given by "talent" while demand is given by "needs". I hope the answer is not something like "materialistic world has in itself its own equilibrium forces that will distribute talents in accordance to the needs".

One solution would be propaganda (something like "we need tellers! Join the Teller Institute now!, or via TV or other media).

[sydnyb]

idealism is bad? Communism just needs better advertisers....

[#FF0000]

If it was so simple, were you the one repairing the machines when they broke?

Yes? Fixing machines is a part of working on a production line. If it's more serious than that then you call the mechanics. If they can't fix it then they stop using a machine from the 70s and buy a newer and equally unreliable equipment.

Getting the machines up, running and maintained is the hard part. Being a button masher when the machines are working is the easy part. There are also many more complicated industries than the one you worked in, for example almost any chemical manufacturing plant.

I don't want to be too specific here but the factory I worked in produced pharmaceuticals. Medicine, syringes, etc. Like I said, the most complicated and technical aspects of the job really pale in comparison of the challenge of logistics.

Your example is like me saying that a car is simple because I know how to drive one. It is so simple that I have someone else repair it when it stops working.

It's actually pretty similar because it's not outside the realm of possibility for someone to actually work on and fix their own car if it's something minor. The same goes for machinery on a production line.

Of course it depends. I'm pretty sure pharma is light industry while chemical is heavy, but regardless, something being complicated doesn't mean it's impossible to manage collectively.