Isn't communism too idealistic?

[trivas7]

OTC, Dean argues thus:

Socialism: the penultimate state of equality. Everything shared, the power and interests of each individual so intertwined that the most minor discomfort will be done away with: Utopia. But Utopia is, by definition, an unattainable state of things: it means "no place." Nature itself precludes perfection.

But socialism isn't a utopia, either. The closest proximity it ever gets to Utopia is that socialism defines the conditions which allow for humans to strive for utopia. The daily struggle to subsist, wherein basic human need resolves itself into conflicts between individuals, stands in the the way of Utopia more than nature. But the triumph over the conditions which create these conflicts could allow humans to redirect their efforts.

[spens]

Cuba has no high wages for doctors, yet it has the highest rate of doctors after San Marino in the world.

They are paid higher than some other occupations, though.

More examples, in countries with 'free' healthcare, do people use health care excessively? No.

I see medicare in the United States used excessively.

When you eat Thanksgiving/Christmas dinner with your family, is food rationed equally? Do your family members pay? In all likeliness everyone takes according to needs.

I stuff myself silly at Thanksgiving, much more than I need.

When there's free coffee at work, how much do you take? All because it's free? I hope not.

I take more than I absolutely need.

Take water, it can be consumed according to needs. Why? Because of demand inelasticity. Tap water in many countries is 'free', does this mean excessive consumption? No. When you go into a public restroom and you wash your hand, do you use an excessive amount of water to wash your hands? No, because of demand inelasticity of water."

If my kids want to play in the sprinkler, do I get the water according to my needs? What if I want a 15 minute shower instead of a 5 minute shower? Water can certainly be used in excessive amounts. Demand being inelastic for a good does not mean that there is no possibility of excessive use.

[Impulse97]

There is still room for corruption here. Instantly re-callable officials still requires a majority, so if the majority are benefited by the decisions of the committee, will a committee member instantly be recalled?

Your assuming that the entire committee has degenerated into corruption or capitalism. And, that the majority of people would benefit from Capitalism or corruption. So, you fight a revolution to abolish corruption and capitalism, only to revert back, because it will benefit a few and make several suffer all under the guise of benefiting everyone? Since when has Capitalism ever benefited the majority?

A conscious proletariat would never allow such a thing to happen. As soon as the first one, two or so started to show signs of corruption or capitalistic policies they'd be out of office faster than an Illinois Governor.

The question is, will there be enough people willing and able to put the effort into years and years of medical school, grueling training and a stressful job when they could choose an easier route and maintain the same standard of living?

Look, you can't be a fast food worker and maintain the same lifestyle as a Dr. We've said this before. It's due to the fact that a Dr. would contribute more to society than a FFW. You keep assuming everyone is a lazy ass who really deep down, want to be doctors, but will always take the easy way out and spend their life at working at McD's circle jerking to House, because it's easier.

[spens]

Your assuming that the entire committee has degenerated into corruption or capitalism. And, that the majority of people would benefit from Capitalism or corruption. So, you fight a revolution to abolish corruption and capitalism, only to revert back, because it will benefit a few and make several suffer all under the guise of benefiting everyone? Since when has Capitalism ever benefited the majority?

A conscious proletariat would never allow such a thing to happen. As soon as the first one, two or so started to show signs of corruption or capitalistic policies they'd be out of office faster than an Illinois Governor.

The majority could benefit from corruption, depending on what exactly the councilmen decided.

Look, you can't be a fast food worker and maintain the same lifestyle as a Dr. We've said this before. It's due to the fact that a Dr. would contribute more to society than a FFW. You keep assuming everyone is a lazy ass who really deep down, want to be doctors, but will always take the easy way out and spend their life at working at McD's circle jerking to House, because it's easier.

I thought it was "to each according to his need". A person gets what he needs, regardless of whether he/she is a doctor or a fast food worker.

[Impulse97]

The majority could benefit from corruption, depending on what exactly the councilmen decided.

I thought it was "to each according to his need". A person gets what he needs, regardless of whether he/she is a doctor or a fast food worker.

Yes, what you need to survive. The basics, education, health care, public transport etc. That doesn't necessarily mean that Dr.'s won't be compensated for the extra use they give back to society.

In capitalism, to even go to medical school you need to come from at least a middle class if not upper middle class background or else you won't have the money to pay tuition for the requisite schooling. Thus, a certain percentage of the population can't become doctors even if they wanted to because they can't afford it. Give everyone the chance for an education and anyone who wants to can become a doctor.

And on the topic of corruption, it just wouldn't be allowed to progress that far. Other communes or councils would know something's up sooner or later and move to stop it. Also, capitalism, does not and cannot benefit the majority, regardless of what a council decides. That's just how the system works. It has to have exploitation to exist.

Corruption is more likely, but it still won't benefit the majority. It's usually done out of greed and it doesn't benefit the majority now and it won't then either. Again, if someone is corrupt they'll get found out sooner or later. Always do even in capitalism. Hell, in my home state in the US 4 of our 7 past Governors have gone to jail for it. As Jon Stewart said, you'd have a better chance of staying free if you decided to flip a coin on whether or not to go to jail than if you became Governor of Illinois.

[spens]

Who decides what extra benefit each occupation gets?

[o well this is ok I guess]

I am in the belief that power naturally corrupts and tends to find ways to increase and consolidate power. After time, you are left with those who have consolidated power to abuse, and those who don't.

Pessimism is what gives idealism its name. It does not reject the lofty ideals of the idealists, but it refuses to act towards it on the basis that no one would act towards it. Whatever is "realistic" simply seems to be the low standards of what a pessimist will work towards.

What is amazing about humanity is not its reality, but its ability to constantly reshape its reality. If power corrupts, we'll abolish it. Demanding the impossible is the root of all possibility.

[Tablo]

Power corrupts and tries to consolidate power is bullshit? I thought the entire premise of communism was to disable the corrupt bourgeoisie who consolidates their power whenever possible?

Not eh entire premise, but it does disable their power. Sorry, I thought you were making some kind of 'human nature says socialism is impossible' argument.

People who design, maintain and optimize these systems have a specialized education. It takes tons of specialty for modern production industry to run, and automation only increases the required specialty, not decreases it.

I agree. Not sure the point you are trying to make.

So who decides to go to school for 12+ years to become a surgeon and does the high stress work of a surgeon, when they could opt to have a much easier life style? There will be some, but will it be enough to fill the needs of the many?

I don't know. In Cuba education is largely free and they have more doctors per patient than any country in the world. Many people want to be doctors, but don't have the opportunity. With free education everyone has the opportunity for a heavily sought after career as a surgeon. Are you saying people should be forced into jobs in some kind of coercive way?

[Octavian]

Idealism-The belief that the world we live is shaped by our ideas
Materialism-The belief that the world shapes our ideas

Capitalism is idealist in the sense that it believes everyone has the potential to be the same and achieve success. But since everyone comes from different material conditions this obviously is not the case. Communism/Socialism recognizes these differences and wishes to correct them by maintaining an equal playing field for everyone.

[spens]

I agree. Not sure the point you are trying to make.

I guess I need some clarification on this:

Also I don't think jobs will be so much 'assigned' by the time communism is achieved due to increased automation of production. No reason to force an individual into a specific occupation.

How does one determine what he contributes to the commune?

I don't know. In Cuba education is largely free and they have more doctors per patient than any country in the world. Many people want to be doctors, but don't have the opportunity. With free education everyone has the opportunity for a heavily sought after career as a surgeon. Are you saying people should be forced into jobs in some kind of coercive way?

I suppose the overall question is, what if you do not have enough people willing and able to fill a role that needs to be filled?

[spens]

Idealism-The belief that the world we live is shaped by our ideas
Materialism-The belief that the world shapes our ideas

Capitalism is idealist in the sense that it believes everyone has the potential to be the same and achieve success. But since everyone comes from different material conditions this obviously is not the case. Communism/Socialism recognizes these differences and wishes to correct them by maintaining an equal playing field for everyone.

You are the third person to mention Idealism/Materalism, but it doesn't really answer any of my questions. Mainly, how is ability and need assigned or regulated?

[Leftsolidarity]

How about the full quote btw?
"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and with it also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished, after labor has become not only a livelihood but life's prime want, after the productive forces have increased with the all-round development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly--only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois law be left behind in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"

[#FF0000]

Mainly, how is ability and need assigned or regulated?

You are reading way, way, way, way, way too far into a slogan.

[spens]

You are reading way, way, way, way, way too far into a slogan.

Seems like a very big part of every day life, slogan or not...

[Rafiq]

They are paid higher than some other occupations, though.

Big whoop

I see medicare in the United States used excessively.

Than you're a sociopath

I stuff myself silly at Thanksgiving, much more than I need.

Good job bro, it's not like you caused famine because of it. If you almost ate everything people would have beat you up

I take more than I absolutely need.

What kind of asshole are you? No one does that.

If my kids want to play in the sprinkler, do I get the water according to my needs? What if I want a 15 minute shower instead of a 5 minute shower? Water can certainly be used in excessive amounts. Demand being inelastic for a good does not mean that there is no possibility of excessive use.

Idiot. You are garunteed everything you need, that's a garuntee, and all other luxuries will be given to you. Are you a proletariat? Do you do such things today? Yes? Than you will be able to do so under socialism.. Of course you'll be able to take extra showers and play in the sprinkler. We can do that now..

That's like a Fuedal peasant asking: "Will I be able to have an extra piece O' chicken in this market societay?

[Rafiq]

I thought it was "to each according to his need". A person gets what he needs, regardless of whether he/she is a doctor or a fast food worker.

Yes, that's garunteed. But doctors would recieve more luxuries than a fast food workers, probably bigger TV's and such.

[Rafiq]

I'm sick of this Idealist nonsense, communism isn't some utopian society we are dreaming about. For christs sake, it's just a movement that will abolish capitalism, for us, whatever Ideas they have, society will adjust itself too. I don't know if it will work and I don't know what it will look like. But I know there is something better than this shit we have now.

[#FF0000]

Seems like a very big part of every day life, slogan or not...

okay here is how it is decided:

can you work (yes) (no)
If yes here's a bunch of jobs, please pick one

do you need anything (yes)(no)
If yes list here:

There are tons of ways this could be organized with different positive and negative aspects. Ultimately it'll be up to the members of a communist society what work needs to be done, how to get it done, how to distribute things, etc. etc. etc.

[spens]

Than you're a sociopath

Because people (not myself) overuse medicare?

Good job bro, it's not like you caused famine because of it. If you almost ate everything people would have beat you up

I didn't eat almost all of it. I ate more than I needed, though.

What kind of asshole are you? No one does that.

Taking any coffee is technically taking more than I need. But if I have some left over (which has happened before) then I took more than I "needed".

Idiot. You are garunteed everything you need, that's a garuntee, and all other luxuries will be given to you. Are you a proletariat? Do you do such things today? Yes? Than you will be able to do so under socialism.. Of course you'll be able to take extra showers and play in the sprinkler. We can do that now..

That's like a Fuedal peasant asking: "Will I be able to have an extra piece O' chicken in this market societay?

I can turn on every faucet in my house and leave them running 24/7 now. So I could do that under communism?

[hardlinecommunist]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

Who decides what your ability or need is? It would take some sort of position of power to determine who is in need and who has ability. I am in the belief that power naturally corrupts and tends to find ways to increase and consolidate power. After time, you are left with those who have consolidated power to abuse, and those who don't.

What Ideology is not Idealistic Communism is the wave of the future it is the only Ideology that can move humanity forward to a bright and radiant future.