Fake Leftists or "Red Fascists"

[DarkPast]

I've noticed a distressing tendency of the working class to be drawn to organizations and tendencies that are sometimes labelled "fake leftist".

To make it clear, I don't mean nominally socialist bourgeois-capitalist parties such as New Labour, but groups that nominally take socialist or communist labels, but are in fact much closer to fascism or nazism - such as the "National Bolsheviks". Therefore I prefer to use the term "red fascists".

Red fascist groups seem to take on the "protector of the oppressed" image, which includes supporting the working class. Of course, such groups are nominally anti-capitalist, but the reality tends to be different - in any case they are not socialist.

Some of the characteristics of there groups include:

-Supporting an aggressive, imperialist foreign policy
-Strong nationalism
-Idea of a supreme race or nation
-Nominal disdain for capitalism and support of the working class (see above)
-Authoritarian style of leadership, ruthless suppression of dissent
-Presence of a "great leader"
-Use of socialist symbols
-Romantic ideals of a return to innocent, often pre-industrial times
-Call for a revolution, but one that is more a national revoultion than a class one - basically a bourgeois revolution

Such groups are by no means new - let us not forget that Hitler called his ideology "national socialism" as a means to lure workers towards his movement (he even based his flag on the communist ones). Furthermore, I'd argue Pol Pot's regime had most of these characteristics (desire for an ethnically pure Khmer Empire, a romatic desire for a return to farming, disdain for intellectuals, ruthless suppression of dissent).

So what is the cause of success of such groups? How can they delude people into believing they're actual socialists?

After thinking about it, I'm led to believe it definitely has something to do with the nationalism (glorifying a single nation above others makes it easy for leaders to mobilise the people against "enemies"), authoritarianism (it encourages not-thinking about what you're actually supporting and simply obeying orders) and, yes, merely using socialist names and symbols (some people really do fall for this - just look at the support for DPRK here).

Thoughts?

[ComradeMan]

Khmer Rouge?

Let's see, fake leftists most certainly coupled with ethnic nationalism, primitivism and general madness that reached some of the most appalling levels of human tragedy imaginable.

Yet there are those who would seek to justify Pol Pot in some way just like there are the weird Juche fetishists hanging around.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

When the term "Red fascist" comes to mind it reminds me of the label that the U.S applied to the soviet Union during the cold war in order to scare the public into anti-communism (trying to play off the WW2 "anti-fascist" atmosphere).

[DarkPast]

When the term "Red fascist" comes to mind it reminds me of the label that the U.S applied to the soviet Union during the cold war in order to scare the public into anti-communism (trying to play off the WW2 "anti-fascist" atmosphere).

Really? I haven't heard of it before. Anyway, it's just a term I made up to differentiate them from the likes of Tony Blair and co.

I certainly had no intent to label the SU "fascist".

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Really? I haven't heard of it before. Anyway, it's just a term I made up to differentiate them from the likes of Tony Blair and co.

I certainly had no intent to label the SU "fascist".

I didn't you think were trying to.

Anyway,it is a term only used by the bourgeoisie.

[hatzel]

Anyway,it is a term only used by the bourgeoisie.

Does this mean that DarkPast [n.b. was going to shorten it to 'DP,' but as we all know that this whole forum is just one great big locker room, I decided to avoid it, so as not to give you types any ammunition...] can't use it for some reason?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Does this mean that DarkPast [n.b. was going to shorten it to 'DP,' but as we all know that this whole forum is just one great big locker room, I decided to avoid it, so as not to give you types any ammunition...] can't use it for some reason?

If he is part of the bourgeoisie he can....anyone else I wouldn't know why they would.

[ComradeMan]

I didn't you think were trying to.

Anyway,it is a term only used by the bourgeoisie.

Actually it isn't, it was used in Italy by Enrico Berlinguer, Secretary General of the Partito Comunista Italiano to describe the Red Brigades, although it later seemed to be indicated that it was not an appropriate term. The term "Red Fascism" is also occasionally used in anarchist circles.

Trotsky (1931) in For a Workers’ United Front Against Fascism

"When a state turns fascist, it doesn’t only mean that the forms and methods of government are changed in accordance with the patterns set by Mussolini – the changes in this sphere ultimately play a minor role – but it means, primarily and above all, that the workers’ organizations are annihilated; that the proletariat is reduced to an amorphous state; and that a system of administration is created which penetrates deeply into the masses and which serves to frustrate the independent crystallization of the proletariat. Therein precisely is the gist of fascism."

[Susurrus]

This could be said to stretch back to the beginnings of the Nazi party. Before Hitler became the leader of it, it was trying to concentrate more on the Socialist part of National Socialist. It was Hitler who made race and nationalism the main issue, and purged some of the old members of the leftist faction(Goebbels himself was one, but Hitler spared him, winning his loyalty).

[Nox]

I've noticed a distressing tendency of the working class to be drawn to organizations and tendencies that are sometimes labelled "fake leftist".

To make it clear, I don't mean nominally socialist bourgeois-capitalist parties such as New Labour, but groups that nominally take socialist or communist labels, but are in fact much closer to fascism or nazism - such as the "National Bolsheviks". Therefore I prefer to use the term "red fascists".

Red fascist groups seem to take on the "protector of the oppressed" image, which includes supporting the working class. Of course, such groups are nominally anti-capitalist, but the reality tends to be different - in any case they are not socialist.

Some of the characteristics of there groups include:

-Juche
-Juche
-Juche
-Juche
-Juche
-Juche
-Juche
-Juche

Such groups are by no means new - let us not forget that Hitler called his ideology "national socialism" as a means to lure workers towards his movement (he even based his flag on the communist ones). Furthermore, I'd argue Pol Pot's regime had most of these characteristics (desire for an ethnically pure Khmer Empire, a romatic desire for a return to farming, disdain for intellectuals, ruthless suppression of dissent).

So what is the cause of success of such groups? How can they delude people into believing they're actual socialists?

After thinking about it, I'm led to believe it definitely has something to do with the nationalism (glorifying a single nation above others makes it easy for leaders to mobilise the people against "enemies"), authoritarianism (it encourages not-thinking about what you're actually supporting and simply obeying orders) and, yes, merely using socialist names and symbols (some people really do fall for this - just look at the support for DPRK here).

Thoughts?

Fixed it for you.

[ComradeMan]

This is a long series of videos, but interesting.

+ YouTube Video

this is also interesting too...

+ YouTube Video

[Nox]

This is a long series of videos, but interesting.

+ YouTube Video

this is also interesting too...

+ YouTube Video

Interesting, I don't have the time for 37 videos but I don't know much about the Khmer Rouge genocide, could you give me a brief overview of what happened and why?

[ComradeMan]

...

It's complicated here's a link....

http://www.cambodia.org/khmer_rouge/

There's also a group at RevLeft
http://www.revleft.org/vb/group.php?groupid=595

[Apoi_Viitor]

Interesting, I don't have the time for 37 videos but I don't know much about the Khmer Rouge genocide, could you give me a brief overview of what happened and why?

When the Khmer Rouge took power, its leaders planned to introduce a rapid development of agriculture and utilize the surplus to industrialize the economy. The leaders worked under the assumption that the masses were dedicated, willing and ready to begin this monstrous undertaking. On the other hand, the underdeveloped and peasantry based masses were exhausted from civil wars and US bombing and were simply looking for a return to normalcy. So obviously, there was great internal dissent when it was learned that the collectivization undertaken during the civil war would become a mainstay of the new economy, and that dissent, mixed with the bizarrely conspiratorial beliefs of the central leadership led to the deaths of over a million cambodians.

[DarkPast]

Not to mention that they basically tricked the populations of entire cities to leave for the countryside and forced them to become farmers. As you can imagine, this led to many deaths since the people in question usually had no experience or knowledge of agriculture.

The amount of control the regime imposed on the population was truly absurd - you could get imprisoned or killed for stuff like wearing jewelery or picking berries in the forest (this was called "private enterprise").

Oh, and most members of ethnic minorites were either killed or expelled. For no reason other than being what they were.

[Agent Equality]

Fake leftists? Red Fascists? I can think of plenty of those! Some are even on Revleft, typing among us! Lets see according to the characteristics ...there's Stalinists, Maoists, Juche-ists, not to mention Marxist-Leninists.... Oh wait.. Have I gone too far? Tell me if I have

[ProletarianResurrection]

Khmer Rouge?

Let's see, fake leftists most certainly coupled with ethnic nationalism, primitivism and general madness that reached some of the most appalling levels of human tragedy imaginable.

Yet there are those who would seek to justify Pol Pot in some way just like there are the weird Juche fetishists hanging around.

The Khmer Rouge were NOT primitivists though and the ethnic nationalism within in their movement was a product of their social base among the poor peasantry given its relationship with the urban centres and Vietnam. I think you should look into Vietnamese chauvinism and US Imperialism and their actions before putting all the blame on the Khmer Rouge.

Just saying.

[ProletarianResurrection]

Actually it isn't, it was used in Italy by Enrico Berlinguer, Secretary General of the Partito Comunista Italiano to describe the Red Brigades, although it later seemed to be indicated that it was not an appropriate term. The term "Red Fascism" is also occasionally used in anarchist circles.

Trotsky (1931) in For a Workers’ United Front Against Fascism

"When a state turns fascist, it doesn’t only mean that the forms and methods of government are changed in accordance with the patterns set by Mussolini – the changes in this sphere ultimately play a minor role – but it means, primarily and above all, that the workers’ organizations are annihilated; that the proletariat is reduced to an amorphous state; and that a system of administration is created which penetrates deeply into the masses and which serves to frustrate the independent crystallization of the proletariat. Therein precisely is the gist of fascism."

Social Fascist which means the same thing basically as Red Fascist was used by the Comintern to describe the Social Democrats in the 20s and early 30s, but Im actually a bit shocked that the PCI used it against the Red Brigades. Saddening.

[ComradeMan]

Social Fascist which means the same thing basically as Red Fascist was used by the Comintern to describe the Social Democrats in the 20s and early 30s, but Im actually a bit shocked that the PCI used it against the Red Brigades. Saddening.

Why? Should they have supported a bunch of false flag terrorists?

[Agnapostate]

The pseudo-populist elements behind "National Socialism" (such as that promoted by the Sturmabteilung prior to the Night of the Long Knives), and the pseudo-syndicalist elements behind Mussolini's fascism are what's being referenced here, I think.