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This is partly in response to something I saw Dhul Fiqar write and mostly to do with my own interest.
He/she said that travel outside our own solar system is effectively nigh on impossible lest we come up with a radical change in technology. I'm no expert but itsn't our or any solar system the place where a Suns infulence spreads, when that infulence stops you've left the solar system? I might be wrong on that so dont bite. Now Voyager 1 and 2 have allready effectively bypassed Pluto and thus have left our Solar System, they were launched in the late 1970's.
Ofcourse it's very different from leaving our Suns infulence to getting to another Solar System (I think!. But I'm pretty sure the folks at NASA and elswhere are working on forms of craft that are effectively powered by the Suns rays, making travel to say Alpha Centuria possible in merely a few decades.
To say it's impossible that mankind will conquer the stars I think is wrong. It was once deemed impossible to fly, it once took weeks to cross the Atlantic, etc. If the Space race of the 1960's had continued at it's pace we'd most likely have something like Odyssey 2001 type technology in space. Show a man from 1939 what man was capable of by 1969 he'd be amazed, show someone from 1969 where the Space programme was by 2003 and he/she be pretty dissapointed. It's all to do with motivation.
If the U$ thought for a second that someone was going to threaten 'their interests' (be it comercial, military, presitge) in space then they would soon give NASA the bucks. I heard China has even been bosting that the first human on Mars is going to be Chinese, given that China is a risiing superpower this could kick of a new space race. Which would mean technology going forward at a faster rate than it has been for the last 30 years. A better example would be scientists discovering untapped Oil on Mars and then the stars and stripes would be there by 2005.
How would and should a Communist society deal with the question of the stars? Would it be deemed morally and ethically wrong to even terraform a planet? Say if we in the distant future we came across a part of the Galaxy packed with life, with technology ranging from 19th Century Earth's to far more advanced. None of the races are a threat to Earth's little Galatic Soviet Republic some could be in the future, but is it right to go and try and liberate the various working class and peasant equivalents.
Do we say 'screw a prime directive' type thing we might regret not getting involved in the future? Or say we cant get involved for reasons that yet we dont really appreciate or understand? Afterall no one has bothered to contact us (working under the presumption there is life out there), maybe they fear that we are the only race not to give up that thing called religion after learning how to read and write. Are we a possible danger and threat?
Afterall if our future Galatic Soviet Republic watched a society which took far longer than anyone else in the Galaxy to abolish slavery, to stop waging war, to be prone to launching genocide on our own, to still be fighting over religion, to be capable of primitive space travel but still have one in six starving, and whose leading power seemed to be so arrogant with all that 'destiny' crap. Would you want them to join the 'club'? They may have sufficient technology but all the other races you've seen abolished their sought of behaviour centuries before.
A far more likely opition is to take the option of making sure these guys never, ever become a threat. Either by making sure they never come into contact with you, or better yet anouncing your presence to them by destroying their space facilities and declaring any attempt at future space travel will be met with the destruction of the planet.
Sounds cruel and Imperialist? Well what if it was a Earth where the Nazis had won the war?
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
My point is that the distance between solar systems is millions if not billions of times the distance from here to the edge of our solar system - we are effectively in the middle of nowhere. Also, any means of propulsion is limited by the speed of light. Given these two physical facts - it is technically impossible to propell a craft between solar systems in less than a few thousand years - even at light speed...
--- G.
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death
- from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'
as Dhul said the distance between solar systems is huge, i dont think anyone in our life time will see many developments in space in terms of exploring. If anything i think we may see the exploration of other planets for extraction of products, though again it would be silly to send a space ship burning petrol to go to a refinary on mars to collect sum more, i think it would use more than it would carry.
An interesting point, why does the US government pay cast sums of money to NASA, what are they hoping to achieve? they must see some potential. I understand that sometimes they use it for launching TV satallites etc but theres more to it than that?
Dhul Fiqar.
Thankyou for your reply. Maybe I'm a optimist and I dont have any scientific basis or fact for what is effectively my 'hunch' but I do believe that at some point us Earthlings will explore more than just this solar system. Right now it's 'human nature' to go exploring. You are right ofcourse that the distance is huge. I've just found out that it's going to take Voyager 1/2 20,000 odd years to get to the next solar system.
Despite the fact I'm hopefull and optimistic I have to be a realist. By the year 3000 where providing we dont destroy ourseleves where do you think we will be in terms of Space? The realist in me says a 'star trek' type space programme is out of the question. I think we would be looking at a succesfull terraformed and settled Mars, I may be wrong but Mercury and Venus could be and defiantly numerous moons of Saturn and Jupiter. We should be looking at numerous space stations throughout the solar system.
This would be a minimum in my opinion, where we go from there is anybody's guess. Will our urge to explore of gone by then? You are right we suffer from being on the 'edge' of our own Galaxy, but a thousand years is just a second in what should be our very long future ahead of us. Where we would be in 1 million years is impossible to comphehend. Roll on the next million.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
Well, we are obviously all just speculating heer - but my hunch is that we will discover the physical constraints of reality to be a lot more flexible than we thought - and I mean that in a VERY long timeframe as we are pretty far away from understanding the physical universe well enough to play around with it to our advantage.
However, scientists have already discovered that Schrödinger's cat can essentially be alive and dead at the same time depending on whether it is observed - totally turning causality on it's head in the process! If the fundamental principle of all science, i.e. that one event follows as a logical result of a former, is no longer applicable... then... well - you see the strangeness of all this
I have a feeling we will discover propulsion to be a dead end in the next few hundred years - and eventually develop ways of manipulating reality itself. After all - scientists have already discovered certain particles that seem to relay information to each other regardless of their distance in space. This means that they are not "sending" anything - they just seem to be on the same page no matter where they are - their "communications" would have to be beyond the speed of light and thus most people speculate that distance is, amazingly enough, irrelevant in this kind of instant "transfer" from one point in the space to another.
And if that is indeed the case - we may be starting out on the long road of figuring out how to send objects instantly from one place to another - anywhere in the physical universe!!
Now that is exciting!
--- G.
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death
- from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'
Here is a quote from a study that basically did a combo with Schrödinger's principle of observation affecting the subject and this apparent "link" between light particles at a distance. They got them to interact at a distance of six miles - with a lag time of 0!
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/...2888/freq4.html
Also if you check: http://www.innerself.com/Creating_Realitie...tive_energy.htm and scroll down a bit you will see an interesting insight into this strange science under the heading: "Energy Communicates"
--- G.
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death
- from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'
Ah, speculation...ain't it great!
Given a reasonably efficient fusion-propulsion system, speeds of 10% of the speed of light should be attainable. A voyage to the nearest star (which probably has no planetary system) would take about 45 years. (It would seem less on board the ship--the time-dilation effect.)
Journeys to stars possibly having earth-like planets would be longer, certainly in the hundred of years and possibly even thousands.
There are two ways to overcome this difficulty. The first is to extend the human life-span significantly--to a future human with a 2,000 year life expectancy, a journey of 500 years is not out of the question.
The other solution is "multi-generational" ships...really small worlds where generations are born, grow up, live and die, until 5 or 10 or more generations later, the "ship" arrives at a distant star.
The human species could build such a world right now, with "off the shelf" technology...though we don't have the propulsion system to take it any place outside the solar system.
There has been speculation to the effect that humans need to build such artificial worlds anyway...even if we never leave the solar system. We're not, as a species, very well suited for life on a planetary surface...we readily fuck things up for our own short-term advantage.
An artificial world, with an ecology designed to suit our preferences, seems to me to be the best long-term solution for saving the earth...and any earth-like planets we may someday visit.
Perhaps by 2500 or so...?
The RedStar2000 Papers
A site about communist ideas
Listen to the worm of doubt for it speaks truth.
The Redstar2000 Papers
Also see this NEW SITE:@nti-dialectics
I think the main problem with the multi-generational ship is the same that faces any society trying to stay on the ball with a sustained effort to accomplish a specific task over many generations. Basically - them damn kids and their wacky ideas
I find it hard to envisage that a crew of people who's great great grandparents basically doomed them to life in a (presumably) deteriorating metal coffin - would still share the same enthusiasm for this mode of space travel their ancestors had. And it only takes a small fuckup somewhere along the way to basically flush a millennium of space travel down the toilet - and you would have to start all over again.
Not to mention what are the people going to do when they get to some hypothetical solarsystem with planets? All kinds of shit could have taken place from the time of the launch - conditions may have changed or perhaps they missed a little detail or two that would make life difficult or even unbearable in this new home. And that is provided everyone for many generations did their homework - learned how to do things their parents knew without ever having the chance to physically stand on the surface of the planet. And let's hope all the generations would be equally intelligent and capable... and let's also hope there won't be a charismatic psycho or two in the hundreds of years of history this self-contained society on the ship would have.
I can easily picture power games, revolutions, unrest and all that other crap fledgling societies have to deal with.
I am not saying human nature can't be overcome - I am just saying I find it easier to envisage inversed causality and the folding of time and space (j/k) =D
--- G.
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death
- from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'
an alein ship would discover the earth ship full of dead people where they all went crazy and killed each other.
Not exactly a good fist contact sceneareo LOL
if we worked out how to make womholes things would be easyer
Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
WORKERS OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!
Written by Karl Marx
I kind of doubt it - since wormholes in reality do not work the same way they do on TV
--- G.
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death
- from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'
I'd say in about 500 years we probally have mining colonies on Mars and possibly some moons of Jupiter. I really dont see any Arthur C Clarke visions of the future really happening. I dont think vast cities on Ganymede or Europa will happen.
As for aliens I dont think Vulcans or Wookies or those sterotypical ones of large headed large pupil skinny bodied aliens ever a reality. Life on other planets will probally not be humanoid, but some creature we would find ghastly.
if there are any Aliens, i swear they must be practising COMMUNISM --> the most advanced mode of any civilization.
any way, there must be aliens..... Us's Area 47 or whatever the shit it is called .... has the secrets~
DOWN WITH JAPANESE IMPERIALISM!
Link in RevLeft.
The Left needs to spank out a number of armchair theorists and kids who cloak themselves with Marxism as excuse for their problems. Exclusion is needed when the cause is hampered. We are supposed to be the examples and persuaders. Assume responsibility, fuckwit!
Full Text: China's Peaceful Development Road
(Official White Paper)
Link.
the only "secrets" at area 51 are experimental aircraft. thats where the stealth bomber was first tested and mistaken by people as a "UFO"
thanks... here is a few links i wanna share with u ~
http://www.area51zone.com/gallery/index.shtml
http://www.area51zone.com/gallery/Extra-te...estrial/Aliens/
DOWN WITH JAPANESE IMPERIALISM!
Link in RevLeft.
The Left needs to spank out a number of armchair theorists and kids who cloak themselves with Marxism as excuse for their problems. Exclusion is needed when the cause is hampered. We are supposed to be the examples and persuaders. Assume responsibility, fuckwit!
Full Text: China's Peaceful Development Road
(Official White Paper)
Link.
Oh my GOD!!!!!!! RUBBER MASKS AND TRASHCAN LIDS!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! =D
--- G.
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death
- from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'
roflmao! do you realize how easy it is to make alien cadavers? all you need is latex and a little talent and bam you have an alien. people believed in bigfoot footage and "footprints" for years until the person who "discovered" them said it was a hoax. same with the Loch Ness "monster" a hoax.
Indeed, I have a friend that does amateur latex shit - it looks pretty convincing at times - even the crap he knocks up in his basement using pocketmoney. I have no doubt there are tons and tons of people that can make stuff just as lifelike as those pics
--- G.
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death
- from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'
If those pics were real, the government would have painted the wall with your brains for knowing they exist.
The greatest threat to democracy is the notion that it has already been achieved.
Actually a dude on another site I go to recently posted some of those and some others and said: "DOWNLOAD THEM NOW - YOU WILL NEVER GET ANOTHER CHANCE - THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO STOP US KNOWING THIS!!!!!" and two days later the thread is still up and doing fine - and everyone told him he was a paranoid weirdo. =D
--- G.
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death
- from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche's 'Thus Spake Zarathustra'
