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Antifa and Free Speech
Comrades, I want to start off with a quick disclaimer. I detest Fascists- let there be no question of that. And I believe that there are times when the best response to Fascism is direct, physical confrontation (we all have the right to defend ourselves).
However, as leftists, we all believe in freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and the freedom to congregate. How do we reconcile these beliefs with the need to confront our Fascist enemies?
To clarify, when should we be physically confronting Fascism, and when should be say "Hey, they're just some racists, and they have the freedom to be wrong."?
Any ideas?
they have freedom of speech, we have freedom of smashing their megaphones over their heads paraphrasing introduction from "No Retreat"
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them...We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. -Karl Popper
Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full.-Leon Trotsky
A revolution without dancing is not worth having.-Emma Goldman
The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall. -Che Guevara
The wise thing to do is simply to skip the bosh and twaddle and vulgarity and untruth, and get the benefit out of the rest. -Teddy Roosevelt
I don't believe in freedom of speech without freedom of action.
I demand both.
Say what you want, but don't think that you won't be held accountable or that you won't have to answer for it. Besides... We already know what fascists are organizing and what it means to us and our communities.
In short: What Anarchist Skinhead said.
We should probably physically confront them when they get to large and popular or when they attack our comrades (extended self-defense) or if they attack people because of their race.
If you meant non-violent legal confrontation then I think we should always disrupt their activities.
But we have to be careful not to over do it or else we will look like "bad Commies attacking European patriots" and when the Nazis and Fascists look like victims, they might gain sympathy
As for the right to be wrong:
We should make sure to also prove they are wrong (though it is obvious, we still need empirical and scientific evidence; thats what seperates us from them). Then, we can add at the end of whatever media you choose to destroy the fascist arguments:
"Hey, they have a right to be wrong"
Preferably something more clever to get readers to dismiss the fascists as angry idiots
Free speech for fascists should only serve to identify them and silence them.
You are entering the vicinity of an area adjacent to a location. The kind of place where there might be a monster, or some kind of weird mirror...
We do?
Freedom of the press? What are you on about? You're all bonkers, mental, off your rockers, bat shit nuts.
Yeah, Trotsky was all over those Bourgeois papers with his Red Guard divisions, seizing their presses and banning the distribution of counter-revolutionary literature. Interesting thing for what appears to be a Trotskyist to say. This is a conversation I've had over 9000 times. Fascists don't have the right to speech, press, congregation, or life. Evolve and come to the understanding that there's a monopoly on speech in the dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie and of the Proletariat and that the state apparatus is used to silence the opposite class from making any meaningful statement; this is clear, undeniable and unavoidable. It's only the worst liberalism to argue for the rights to speech, press, congregation, etc. for a demographic of rabid nationalists who want nothing more than to kill and imprison you and I for our affiliations. Never forget '33 when the Gestapo came for the KPD, and never forget the struggles in Yugoslavia and Greece, and the heroic victory of the Soviet Union over the fascist Axis, and remember your obligation to attack fascists with all ferocity if they show their faces or dare attempt to indoctrinate our children! The deaths of more than 40,000,000 innocent people are on all of our shoulders, their bold sacrifice in defiance to fascist invasion hanging on us like a shroud. To betray their sacrifice and to coddle neo-fascists is only the worst kind of treason.
Tell your master that the Black Swordsman has come.
Counter-revolutionaries should not have the right to organize, demonstrate publicly, speak publicly, publish anything, or promote counter-revolution.
"freedom of speech/press etc" is a totally bourgeois misconception of "rights".
Put capitalism in a bag of rice.
As I said in Antifa group.
I don't think freedom of speech or related freedoms extend to reactionaries and fascists. To allow such to happen would be counter productive in a revolutionary situation. Also Capitalism will always find a way to attack us and we must always fight back. As long as we don't go after innocent workers' and comrades, we shouldn't have to take the "principled" stance and allow fascists their "rights".
Ok, maybe I should clarify things a bit here.
I believe in fighting Fascist scum. I'm doing some research for a blog post on the subject, and I'm trying to get other people's justifications or explanations as to why confronting Fascists is not an infringement of free speech. I am not trying to defend Fascists, and I am not trying to deny that Trotsky and Trotskyists alike have been involved in attacks upon enemy publications.
Look people, we're on the same side here. Let's all keep our cool, and have an honest, calm discussion about our various rationales.
Last edited by Flying Trotsky; 23rd July 2011 at 20:25. Reason: Needed to further clarify, and the tone was probably a bit too harsh
As soon as they actively start advocating violence against other races or start acting violent towards other races, I feel that's when we have to start acting. Also what ever actions we take, we need to keep in mind we have to prevent more of them from popping up.
And who defines a "counter-revolutionary?" You? Me? A council? It's a slippery slope when we start banning speech.
"If those in charge of our society — politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television — can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves."
-Howard Zinn
Some of these people here are unbelievable, avowedly stating that everyone who doesn't agree with 'our' politics has no right to express their disagreement. Utterly disgusting.
Revolution is an inherently authoritarian process.
I am open to hearing suggestions on how others think revolution can be defended while protecting the freedom of fascists to organize?
Put capitalism in a bag of rice.
They may organize, and the revolutionaries may organize to crush them.
Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full.-Leon Trotsky
A revolution without dancing is not worth having.-Emma Goldman
The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall. -Che Guevara
The wise thing to do is simply to skip the bosh and twaddle and vulgarity and untruth, and get the benefit out of the rest. -Teddy Roosevelt
How is crushing them any different from denying them their "right" to free speech, assembly and etc?
Fascist groups use the umbrella of freedom of speech to plan their activities. You let them talk about their shit unmolested, eventually they're going to quit talking and start acting. I can't, in all good conscience, let that happen. Sorry.
My machine my machine,
Please bring my machine.
Well, as my first post shows, the right to free speech should be extend to those that believe in it as well, but should tolerance be given to those intending to crush tolerance(as the fascists do), tolerance itself is threatened, thus legitimizing attempts to save tolerance.
Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full.-Leon Trotsky
A revolution without dancing is not worth having.-Emma Goldman
The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall. -Che Guevara
The wise thing to do is simply to skip the bosh and twaddle and vulgarity and untruth, and get the benefit out of the rest. -Teddy Roosevelt
