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[FONT=Verdana]The issue is revolutionary POLITICS. In the midst of the most deadly economic crisis in the history of human development, threatening wellbeing and lives of everyone [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]“Because there is too much civilisation, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce. The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property” [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]from Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels.) and this NotW scandal is exposing the corrupt workings of the state and its relationship with big capital in a way that gives communists the priceless opportunity to agitate against the lie that “parliamentary democracy” represents the will of the people and that ‘we’ have a free press and a police force that protects ‘us’ from the bad people.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Every vested interest in Britain is going to be working overtime now to get control back again, make suitable apologetic noises, promise drastic reform, bring the wrongdoers to book, etc before getting back to business as usual, hiding the depth of economic crisis, pushing its effects on to the backs of the working class – fiddling expenses, intimidating opponents, manipulating elections, taking bribes, but never ever doing anything about the root course of all crisis and misery – THE CAPITALIS SYSTEM ITSELF! [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]The “beat the cuts” sloganising sends the wrong message to workers, it suggests that a bit more pushing will save their pensions or reveres the cuts etc, “solving the economic crisis” is just delusional when this economic mayhem is heading pell-mell for all out trade war and more shooting war and no amount of window dressing around the corrupt state is going to alter that. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]By all means protest strike and boycott etc but tell the whole story, stop trying to lead workers along with half baked reformist nonsense about ‘nationalising’ industry as a “solution”. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]It’s my experience that in Britain the ‘left’ activists have been, and are still being, schooled in not making revolutionary interventions in meetings, picket lines, and demonstrations. If they approach the question at all’ its done with a nod and a wink as if to say “we are putting forward reformist policies now, but really we are very radical even [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]rrrrrevolutionaries”[/FONT][FONT=Verdana] “Just look at our ‘theoretical journals and our “internal” documents, it’s obvious we’re revolutionaries”. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]But if any workers turn up and say, “can we talk about the revolutionary potential in this struggle” they are immediately ostracised, told to shut up, slandered and even physically intimidated by the “LEFTS”! We just have to look at this thread to see the response to a political intervention, almost all the criticism of the OP is utterly devoid of politics. Trying to get people banned instead of coming to grips with the analysis, blatant lying about people without providing a shred of evidence ever being presented. Its dreary bureaucracy is what it is, shilly-shallying and game playing but no revolutionary POLITICS. No attempt to put up an analysis of developments beyond some wiseacre smartass wisecracks.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Millions starving, war everywhere, corruption and economic collapse environmental ruin and ruled over by self serving “democratic” parliamentary parasites and frauds and precisely because of this, increasing numbers of workers are looking for revolutionary answers. If Leninist revolutionary theory isn’t right, just say what is. Present your own analysis and POLITICS. [/FONT]
Last edited by Threetune; 9th July 2011 at 15:24.
See where we have threads where we actually discuss this latest news about NoW. Yours is just for you verbiosity and in fact void of any substance but very "rrrrevolutionary" indeed. And that you, not "any worker", have been thrown out of meetings of leftwing organisations hardly suprise anyone here.
"I want to say sweet, silly things." - V.I Lenin
[FONT=Verdana]Where have you made a contribution to this issue?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Prove it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Evidence?[/FONT]
Its not the messenger,its his attitude and the action he pose. I would dispise this behavior even if it would come from an anarchist fanboy arguing that the only true words in this world come from baikurin.Oh, I see it's not the message, merely the messenger (in this case threetune)?
There is nothing wrong with lenin but on the other hand, there is something wrong with rejecting everything else.
I used to be like threetune long time ago, a narrow minded person hating all the ML and dismissing everything coming from them, but i grew up and decided to open myself to differents opinions from all side of the revolutionary left.
WHY kléber, WHY!!!!!!!
[FONT=Verdana]But this is exactly the cringing tail-ending of the working class that I am talking about. If the bloke on the bus tells you that we can “solve the economic crisis” (SP)by striking to stop the attacks on wages and conditions or reversed them by another big protest to “ [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]hit them even harder.”[/FONT][FONT=Verdana] (SWP) You would agree would you? Why at that point would you not mention that only working class power can guarantee the resolution of all economic crisis chaos? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]We are all for improving our “[/FONT][FONT=Verdana]material lot,” but we are revolutionary communists who want more than “improving[/FONT][FONT=Verdana] our [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]material lot,” even if it were possible in this economic meltdown, we fight for the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]“[/FONT][FONT=Verdana]material lot,” of all workers everywhere by the revolutionary taking of power from the dictatorship of capitalism because that is the only genuine “solution” to all the misery, starvation, environmental degradation and war.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]That’s not too hard to say is it? Isn’t that better than patronisingly nodding your head in passive agreement in order to garner some spurious popularity like a bourgeois politician? [/FONT]
Last edited by Threetune; 9th July 2011 at 17:45.
What point do you think Threetune is trying to make that you and others here are critical about?
that the only way is the leninist way, and anything else is devoid of anything that could be useful or meaningful.
wich is then again an exemple of leninist exeptionalism.
WHY kléber, WHY!!!!!!!
Compromise with whom? Compromise on what specifically? How are these compromises "good for the working class"?
Isn't it necessary for the proletariat and oppressed to conquer power (ie. to assert their own revolutionary "power-grab agenda")?
Well, I have to repeat what Threetune said here, "If Leninist revolutionary theory isn’t right, just say what is. Present your own analysis and POLITICS."
If there is something outside Leninism "that could be useful or meaningful" to revolutionary socialism, then the onus is upon non-Leninists to demonstrate it and then to either demonstrate why this is entirely incompatible with Leninism, or maybe the better idea is to get Leninists to integrate these "useful or meaningful" things into their theory and practice (making them actually better revolutionary Marxists and better Leninists).
Well, its obvious that leninism have its flaws beccause, well no leninist system have lasted more than 70 years, on the historic level its extremely short.
Personally, i think one of the problems with that model is the exclusive system it create for the sake of its own stability on the long run create instability.
The key i think is to be more inclusive and accepting of differents system and opinions and to learn to work together regardless of our small differences.
We are leftist after all, we ultimately want an end to this capitalist system.
WHY kléber, WHY!!!!!!!
[FONT=Verdana]Because Marxsm-Leninism does not have all the answers it is always open to the development of revolutionary theory which is its life blood you could say. We are not the least interested in dogma or sectarianism but in understanding what is actually happening, explaining it and either correcting the explanation if its proved wrong or defending it vigorously if its not proved wrong. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Part and parcel of the political landscape is other political tendencies that we think are saying the wrong things to workers about “[/FONT][FONT=Verdana]solving the economic crisis” and not taking full advantage of the open goal that the “hacking scandal” presents to agitate for a revolutionary “solution”. Get good at attacking the ruling class or as some of you put it make it “cool” to savage them at every opportunity in preparation for their ultimate defeat. Develop some partisan class spirit at least and practice writing and making anti-capitalist speeches. What’s wrong with that?[/FONT]
Do you think posting here makes any difference? If you think the world is in dire need of action then go out and do something instead of writing screeds of shit.
He is probably looking for other revolutionary socialist comrades who share similar perspectives and basic principles to actually go out and together intervene actively in a useful and meaningful way. So am I. This is a means to an end.
He also is probably trying to seek clarification and self-clarification by discussing this stuff with others, precisely because we do not know everything. So do I.
But how do you define something that is wrong? what give you that special magical ability to be the sole judge and jury in what is wrong and what is not?
WHY kléber, WHY!!!!!!!
[FONT=Verdana]Ha the “why don’t you do something” argument, with which all cynical defeatist philistinism attacks the struggle for revolutionary theory. Leninist theory about this is strait forward.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] Have you got anything to say about the monstrous corruption on display around the NotW scandal? [/FONT]
Explain to me what this struggle for revolutionary theory is and how complaining about the left on an internet forum has to do with it. How does Leninism have any more to say about phone hacking than any other marxist theory on capitalism?
[FONT=Verdana]We don’t do it by having abstract academic arguments and we don’t get dragged into them for a start.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I opened up the discussion in the OP and gave an opinion. It wasn’t good enough so I went on to expand it and add some details and so on all the time building up theory about the current world situation CONCIOUSLY DELIBERATLY not accidentally.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]If you really want to try it and find out how easy it is and prove to yourself that it is not magic start saying something political about the NotW scandal and the POLITICS of it and see what you come up with. Simple. Then improve it. And just keep doing it.[/FONT]
you didnt understood my question.
I simply asked why do you think the ML are the only one that have this ability to judge and determine what is wrong and what is not.
WHY kléber, WHY!!!!!!!
