Anti-Fascism as a front:

[Transcendence]

"It is easier to be a critic than a creator." This statement was never truer than when applied to anti-fascism. From what I have observed, the nature of anti-fascism is a timid form of Communism, a Communism-lite. It is a method of attempting, by deceit, to trick people into following Communist rhetoric they would otherwise find unpalatable. It is easy to get people to subscribe to simplistic messages such as "anti-racism" or "pro-democracy", yet dig a little deeper into most organizations such as UAF, and you begin to see the real agenda.

The fact of the matter is, the reason Communism (and I use this as a broad term to describe the wider left, as I will deal with in depth later) has made no inroads in the past 20 to 30 years is because people do not wish to sign up to the more 'extreme' elements of the doctrine. People don't want religion stamped out, they don't want enforced atheism. Just look at the rapid growth of religion in ‘communist’ China. They don't want the removal of private property, or imposed uniformity. And the fact of the matter is, Communists know this. Therefore they present: Anti-Fascism! Get rid of those big mean fascists over there, who could argue with such a prospect? People don't notice the sting in the tail.

And then of course there's a matter of, who exactly are these anti-fascists? The answer is simple really: just about anyone. Liberals, Anarchists, Communists, Socialists. Some may see that as a plus, a broad church movement - but really it belies the fact that each movement listed individually failed on its own merits. That no consensus can be reached; that anti-fascism is an ideology that stands for both everything and nothing. None of these movements can win on their own platform. And if they continue to follow this route of burying their policies, they never will.

[#FF0000]

The fact of the matter is, the reason Communism (and I use this as a broad term to describe the wider left, as I will deal with in depth later) has made no inroads in the past 20 to 30 years is because people do not wish to sign up to the more 'extreme' elements of the doctrine. People don't want religion stamped out, they don't want enforced atheism. Just look at the rapid growth of religion in ‘communist’ China. They don't want the removal of private property, or imposed uniformity. And the fact of the matter is, Communists know this. Therefore they present: Anti-Fascism! Get rid of those big mean fascists over there, who could argue with such a prospect? People don't notice the sting in the tail.

Communists don't propose any of these thing except the bit about private property and it doesn't mean what you probably think it means.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Incoming restrictionnnnnn peww pewwwwww

[Transcendence]

Well, I see apart from the false threat of a ban and an irrelevant observation no-one had a rebuttal to this.

[Obs]

You come on a communist forum and criticise anti-fascists for being communists, and expect a rebuttal? Do you regularly consume crystal meth?

[Transcendence]

If you took the time to read my post, I'm criticising anti-fascist movements for failing to stand on their own platform and attempting to use the umbrella term "anti-fascism" to decieve people into believing they're something else.

[Transcendence]

Also, I think you'll find it's mostly Communists that are the crystal meth takers, it is a rather permissive ideology after all

[Decolonize The Left]

"It is easier to be a critic than a creator."

Depends on what you're critiquing and what you're creating doesn't it?

This statement was never truer than when applied to anti-fascism. From what I have observed, the nature of anti-fascism is a timid form of Communism, a Communism-lite.

You've observed anti-fascism being an economic system? I'm impressed as all I've ever observed in anti-fascism is, well, anti-fascism...

It is a method of attempting, by deceit, to trick people into following Communist rhetoric they would otherwise find unpalatable. It is easy to get people to subscribe to simplistic messages such as "anti-racism" or "pro-democracy", yet dig a little deeper into most organizations such as UAF, and you begin to see the real agenda.

Oh do tell..

The fact of the matter is, the reason Communism (and I use this as a broad term to describe the wider left, as I will deal with in depth later) has made no inroads in the past 20 to 30 years is because people do not wish to sign up to the more 'extreme' elements of the doctrine. People don't want religion stamped out, they don't want enforced atheism.

No communist wants to enforce atheism, or stamp out religion. Communists believe with reason that religion will gradually disappear with the change in the mode of economic production.

Just look at the rapid growth of religion in ‘communist’ China. They don't want the removal of private property, or imposed uniformity. And the fact of the matter is, Communists know this. Therefore they present: Anti-Fascism! Get rid of those big mean fascists over there, who could argue with such a prospect? People don't notice the sting in the tail.

1. China isn't communist.
2. Communists don't want "the removal of private property," they want working class possession of the means of production.
3. Communists oppose fascism for the same reason most people do, because it's reactionary and oppressive.

And then of course there's a matter of, who exactly are these anti-fascists? The answer is simple really: just about anyone. Liberals, Anarchists, Communists, Socialists. Some may see that as a plus, a broad church movement - but really it belies the fact that each movement listed individually failed on its own merits.

No... it belies the fact that lots of people share the same point of view.

That no consensus can be reached; that anti-fascism is an ideology that stands for both everything and nothing. None of these movements can win on their own platform. And if they continue to follow this route of burying their policies, they never will.

Wow. This shit is deep man. You must have like, really thought about this stuff for like, a while and shit.

I mean anti-fascists are actually communists in disguise??? So THAT'S why they wear those masks and shit - so we can't see their red faces! Crazy commies... hiding everywhere.

I'm gonna go look under my porch really quick, I thought I heard some anti-fascist slogans being yelled out front.

If I don't come back, ... , they got me.

- August

[ZrianKobani]

also, i think you'll find it's mostly communists that are the crystal meth takers, it is a rather permissive ideology after all

lololololololololololololol

[Hebrew Hammer]

Also, I think you'll find it's mostly Communists that are the crystal meth takers, it is a rather permissive ideology after all

Meth is reactionary, coke is revolutionary, duh.

[Decolonize The Left]

Meth is reactionary, coke is revolutionary, duh.

Coke is expensive and hence reactionary.

Whiskey is revolutionary.

- August

[Thirsty Crow]

Isn't it really interesting that OP's only posts, regardless of ramblings about Portugal and Spain being sparsely populated, consist of:

1) denouncing black nationalism

So your argument in essence boils down to black nationalism is "good" because it is defensive, when in actual fact the only real reason it is defensive is because they are a minority - but they won't be forever as white numbers decline. As with all racialist movements, they will radicalise proportionally to their power. There are no "good racists" and "bad racists."

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...&postcount=337

2) and denouncing anti-fascism, in a particularly interesting way: namely, OP argued that every ideological position which can be included in the overall anti-fascist front failed, including liberalism, which implies a certain political outlook on behalf of OP: either a variant of conservativism, or outright fascism

Boys and girls, I smell a dirty rotten fash.

[Tommy4ever]

The Anti-Fascist idea seems to basically be a modern extension of the idea of a Popular Front against Fascism that emerged way back. This idea insinuates that it is more important to deal with the greater evil (Fascism) than the lesser evil (Liberal Capitalism) and differences should be put aside whilst this problem is dealt with. Thats the thinking behind the idea. Your also must understand that the left has a chronic problem of labelling anything racist as Fascist. Now, anti-racism (for the past century atleast) has been perhaps the second most important facet of leftist ideologies (second only to opposition to the excesses of capitalism) therefore opposition to racist groups is seen as extremely important. Any racist movement, no matter how weak, must be throttled in its cradle lest it spread into something as horrific as the regimes we saw in the mid 20th century.

Thats the thinking behind it. Anti-Fascism isn't really some strange and shadowy movement with the aim of converting the unwilling to socialism - if contact with leftist ideas does indeed make people consider them then this is merely a secondary positive.

The single idea of socialism that you must understand is the simple belief that the workers should control the means of production. No man should be able to exploit another. That is what socialism means and I do believe this is something people would be able to handle. Our real problem isn't that our ideas are unacceptable, it is that our ideas are falsly presented by our opponents who want to ensure that they appear unacceptable.

[Die Rote Fahne]

"It is easier to be a critic than a creator." This statement was never truer than when applied to anti-fascism. From what I have observed, the nature of anti-fascism is a timid form of Communism, a Communism-lite. It is a method of attempting, by deceit, to trick people into following Communist rhetoric they would otherwise find unpalatable. It is easy to get people to subscribe to simplistic messages such as "anti-racism" or "pro-democracy", yet dig a little deeper into most organizations such as UAF, and you begin to see the real agenda.

Anti-fascism has no set socioeconomic theories. It's merely a movement that opposes fascism. It just so happens that communists, anarchists, etc. are active anti-fascists.

If they find communist rhetoric palatable under the guise of anti-fascism, then they find it palatable altogether.

Real Agenda is what now? NWO?

The fact of the matter is, the reason Communism (and I use this as a broad term to describe the wider left, as I will deal with in depth later) has made no inroads in the past 20 to 30 years is because people do not wish to sign up to the more 'extreme' elements of the doctrine. People don't want religion stamped out, they don't want enforced atheism. Just look at the rapid growth of religion in ‘communist’ China. They don't want the removal of private property, or imposed uniformity. And the fact of the matter is, Communists know this. Therefore they present: Anti-Fascism! Get rid of those big mean fascists over there, who could argue with such a prospect? People don't notice the sting in the tail.

Strawman.

And then of course there's a matter of, who exactly are these anti-fascists? The answer is simple really: just about anyone. Liberals, Anarchists, Communists, Socialists. Some may see that as a plus, a broad church movement - but really it belies the fact that each movement listed individually failed on its own merits. That no consensus can be reached; that anti-fascism is an ideology that stands for both everything and nothing. None of these movements can win on their own platform. And if they continue to follow this route of burying their policies, they never will.

Lolwut

[Hebrew Hammer]

Coke is expensive and hence reactionary.

Maybe if you're in the first-world yeah.

[agnixie]

Lolwut

Dudes a butthurt fascist.

[Transcendence]

Well, seeing as this thread has gotten rather lively I'll just deal with the more pressing points in amongst all the junkie banter.

"1. China isn't communist.
2. Communists don't want "the removal of private property," they want working class possession of the means of production.
3. Communists oppose fascism for the same reason most people do, because it's reactionary and oppressive.

I'm aware this "China isn't Communist" argument would come up, hence why I highlighted the word. I certainly don't consider it in any sense a true Communist state, but I do find it interesting that Communists wish to distance themselves from all existing or previously existing Communist states. North Korea isn't Communist, Soviet Russia wasn't Communist, Vietnam wasn't Communist.. etc. It may well be the case that none of these states managed to reach whatever arbitrary distinction signifies "true" communism, but perhaps the problem is with the ideology rather than circumstance?

Isn't it really interesting that OP's only posts, regardless of ramblings about Portugal and Spain being sparsely populated, consist of:

1) denouncing black nationalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transcendence
So your argument in essence boils down to black nationalism is "good" because it is defensive, when in actual fact the only real reason it is defensive is because they are a minority - but they won't be forever as white numbers decline. As with all racialist movements, they will radicalise proportionally to their power. There are no "good racists" and "bad racists."

2) and denouncing anti-fascism, in a particularly interesting way: namely, OP argued that every ideological position which can be included in the overall anti-fascist front failed, including liberalism, which implies a certain political outlook on behalf of OP: either a variant of conservativism, or outright fascism

Boys and girls, I smell a dirty rotten fash."

Top quality work in detecting opposition on the opposing forums, Sherlock Stalin.

No communist wants to enforce atheism, or stamp out religion. Communists believe with reason that religion will gradually disappear with the change in the mode of economic production.

Hmm.. Historically, I'm sure you'll concede that the "gradual disappearance of religion" hasn't been quite so 'gradual' in communist states. Tends to be a lot more immediate, in the sense of the churches suddenly being torn down or blown up ;p

Real Agenda is what now? NWO?

Yup. You Illumanti, and the reptiles. Oh and Xenu. It's all part of your secret plan.

[Thirsty Crow]

Top quality work in detecting opposition on the opposing forums, Sherlock Stalin.

Jeez, poor quality work in detecting one simple fact about this forum: we don't like fash. In fact, they are banned on sight.
But wow, I've never been called a name which has something to do with old Joseph, sweet

Now, why don't you tell us about your political views (other than anti-communism)?

[Die Rote Fahne]

Well, seeing as this thread has gotten rather lively I'll just deal with the more pressing points in amongst all the junkie banter.

LOL ok...

I'm aware this "China isn't Communist" argument would come up, hence why I highlighted the word. I certainly don't consider it in any sense a true Communist state, but I do find it interesting that Communists wish to distance themselves from all existing or previously existing Communist states. North Korea isn't Communist, Soviet Russia wasn't Communist, Vietnam wasn't Communist.. etc. It may well be the case that none of these states managed to reach whatever arbitrary distinction signifies "true" communism, but perhaps the problem is with the ideology rather than circumstance?

Do tell us the exact flaws in our theory and Ideology that prevented these nations from achieving socialism/communism? I mean, it couldn't be the lack of following the theory...certainly not...

Top quality work in detecting opposition on the opposing forums, Sherlock Stalin.

Lol. Usually when someone isn't anti-fascist, it's because they are either a fascist or a sympathizer of fascism.

Hmm.. Historically, I'm sure you'll concede that the "gradual disappearance of religion" hasn't been quite so 'gradual' in communist states. Tends to be a lot more immediate, in the sense of the churches suddenly being torn down or blown up ;p

You'll be pleased to know that Stalin was more lenient toward churches than Lenin.

Yup. You Illumanti, and the reptiles. Oh and Xenu. It's all part of your secret plan.

So you'd gladly explain the wider anti-fascist agenda?

[Decolonize The Left]

Well, seeing as this thread has gotten rather lively I'll just deal with the more pressing points in amongst all the junkie banter.

Troll confused with trolling?

I'm aware this "China isn't Communist" argument would come up, hence why I highlighted the word. I certainly don't consider it in any sense a true Communist state, but I do find it interesting that Communists wish to distance themselves from all existing or previously existing Communist states. North Korea isn't Communist, Soviet Russia wasn't Communist, Vietnam wasn't Communist.. etc. It may well be the case that none of these states managed to reach whatever arbitrary distinction signifies "true" communism, but perhaps the problem is with the ideology rather than circumstance?

Odd that you yourself say that you don't consider China a "true communist state" yet then you say that communists often try and do what you just did... so what are you trying to say?

Hmm.. Historically, I'm sure you'll concede that the "gradual disappearance of religion" hasn't been quite so 'gradual' in communist states. Tends to be a lot more immediate, in the sense of the churches suddenly being torn down or blown up ;p

This may have been true in isolated cases, much like right-wingers blowing up abortion clinics and advocating the murder of doctors who perform abortions.

All in all, your 'points' are nothing other than tangentially related ideas which you seem to think gives you some sort of true point of view on anti-fascism.

You are, of course, a fucking moron. Communists aren't trying to infiltrate or co-opt anti-fascism, rather, anti-fascism has a long history of being leftist. The fact that you came onto a leftist forum and your first post is about anti-fascism simply tells all of us that you're a fascist troll and a very poor one at that. We've seen far better in our time.

But points for trying.

- August