Black Bloc.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I'm sure this has been done to death but the debate seems to be fresh given the paranoia surrounding a potential black bloc to coincide with upcoming strikes. Are they a useful tactic? What is a better alternative?

I would say that the black bloc is a great tactic that, in recent events in Britain at least, has represented the most radical and confrontational elements of the movement and this has made an impression on young people. Take the TUC march - workers and students were lead to the rally so that they could listen to reformist politicians make the case for a labour vote, but those conscious youngsters that didn't see these reformists as an answer took to the streets and made an impression.

This is not to say that the tactic is a be all and end all by any means, but at major events, the bloc will symbolize the need for confrontation against the state and the need for a movement that doesn't fall for the lies of bourgeois politicians, or pretend to be radical but lack the drive to fight with force if needed. People are shown that it is possible to fight the state in numbers and that we do have the strength to confront the ruling class directly, away from the ballot box. Black blocs raise consciousness and provide a tactic to those who want to confront their class enemies. This has always seemed more effective to me than say a stall, selling papers, outside of Hyde Park just before students and workers flood in to listen to Ed Milliband talk bollocks.

A problem seen at the moment is agent provocateurs. There is some legitimacy to that I'd say, but then, revolutionaries always have the police breathing down their necks, and I can't think of another tactic that can symbolize the militant anti-capitalist struggle like the black bloc. Is it worth forgetting about because of cops?

Discuss the black bloc. I'm mainly wanting to hear from anarchists on the matter, given that anarchists are having the debate in some quarters. I don't imagine many Trotskyists will see the bloc as a good tactic but if they want to put forward their own militant and revolutionary tactics then they should feel free.

[Jimmie Higgins]

As a trotskyist I think trying to build a larger and inclusive movement is the most important thing at this stage when (at least in the US) support for capitalism is dropping faster than the stock market but no clear sense of a viable way to fight back.

Street-fighting in a direct way may be necessary (i.e. Egyptian's fighting hired thugs and police in Cairo) but in the US and UK we are no where near that point and these kind of actions actually just allow the ruling class to isolate us and it simply does nothing to spread class-consciousness or ways for WORKERS to fight back. The state knows repression, in the US they have more guns and more tactical ability and jail-cells than there are anarchists or radicals in general - so why fight them on their turf. I was in the DNC protests in 2000 and the black bloc was frankly a joke like the Polish calvery charging into the NAZI blitzkrieg. People thought they were giving the cops the runaround but the cops knew exactly what they were doing and herded us, split us into small and separated groups and then rounded us up when we were small enough. It was a joke and that's part of the reason I started looking into actual radical organizations rather than just thinking I could be some cowboy radical.

I am very partial to anarchist ideas and the best ones are the ones focused on the working-class and building up workplace resistance IMO - I found the black block to be more like 1970s Maoism than serious anarchism (in form, not rhetoric). It's also elitist - like the working class just needs a bunch of masked people to "lead the way". Again, I think the thing radicals need to be doing is not separating themselves and making themselves anonymous behind masks, but organizing alongside other workers and helping to try and bring people together and build a real radical left that's rooted in working class communities and so on.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

See I don't think that it is elitist. It doesn't strike me as if the black bloc is meant to lead the way, its meant to be the way for workers to join together in anonymous unity against those repressive institutions they face. Its inclusive and welcomes anti-capitalists, I have invited people into black blocs and they loved the unity but above all the militancy and the feeling that something can be achieved in unity and force. We never feel as if we are leading the way as much as we are showing that there is a way.

I think your first point is valid though. I can't speak for us over here as the last black blocs have actually given the police a runaround but I'd imagine that the experience will only help them to improve their own tactics in dealing with the bloc. I also agree about helping to build a larger movement too, I make the distinction with the black bloc as being a tactic within a major event as opposed to some kind of means to an end. I think these confrontational tactics have actually radically swayed the movement in Britain with regards to students - since the destruction at Millbank, one can hear revolution being said by students in a positive context all over the place. I could name a list of people that have been radicalized as a result of the black bloc. If the NUS had it their way on the day that Millbank got vandalized by a huge group of students, everyone would've gone home after the rally and done nothing, but since the action, this has not been the case.

Materialistically I'd say that the movement has had inherent confrontational characteristics due to the high concentration of anger felt by people due to the worsening conditions they are faced with and the obvious attacks the government is making against the poor, and that the black bloc is a method that can potentially utilize that anger and direct it towards symbolic targets and raise consciousness amongst those that are angry and wish to fight.

To put it shortly, the black bloc and the broader movement of working class resistance to the ruling class can coincide perfectly.

[Nofuture]

Smashing a windows at Starbucks does not bringing global capitalism to a grinding halt go figure.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Smashing a windows at Starbucks does not bringing global capitalism to a grinding halt go figure.

Duh... Shoplifting does! I think you're missing the point of this thread, if you at all read it.

[Jimmie Higgins]

That was a really good response and I would also like to hear more from other anarchist comrades about various opinions on this (pro or con) so sorry to monopolize the conversation so far.

See I don't think that it is elitist. It doesn't strike me as if the black bloc is meant to lead the way, its meant to be the way for workers to join together in anonymous unity against those repressive institutions they face. Its inclusive and welcomes anti-capitalists, I have invited people into black blocs and they loved the unity but above all the militancy and the feeling that something can be achieved in unity and force. We never feel as if we are leading the way as much as we are showing that there is a way.

True, not everyone who engages in these activities is doing it for the same reasons, but is "feeling militant" political? Does it help us actually pave the way for students and workers to learn how to be self-leaders and radicals? It may make the participants feel like they are taking it to the state, but so did Che Guevara and the Weathermen Underground, but I don't think these strategies helped working people gain more power over their own lives.

So that's why I have problems with trying to organize without being upfront and making a clear political case and debate about why such and such tactic should or should not be done. Working class people can decide for themselves and we just need to be showing in words and actions radical ideas that counter the myths of the ruling class. I think that ideas like insurrectionism and gurellaism just help the ruling class to drive a wedge between workers and radicals without leading to developing new radical workers. The ruling class always says that "our agenda" is seperate from regular people and when radicals act covertly (either insurrectionist or the US CP hiding its politics back in the day) and hide their faces, they are just feeding into that artificial separation.

It may feel rewarding to confront the state directly, but in the long run these little battles mean little to the ruling class: if we were organized and took over the ports with the support of 1000s of workers, truck-drivers stopped on the bridges in support, and not to mention other workplace occupations, then we hit the ruling class where it hurts and show where the working class really has the power - not by putting our bodies on the line, but by putting a halt to the ruling class bottom-line. 1000 militant and determined truck-drivers can do more damage to capitalism and set more of a clear example of working class power than 1000 militant and determined street fighters. But convincing non yet radical students or workers means being upfront and clear and wining trust in my opinion.

Then working class people or allied organizations can debate it out and decide if they want to do something else or if that makes sense. When people confront the police unilaterally and with little open arguments as to why and no decision making then it seems to me that the argument about the effectiveness of the tactics is that the other people at the protest just aren't smart enough to figure out who they are up against. I'm not saying black blockers themselves are elitist at all, just the undemocratic nature of that sort of thing makes me unconvinced of it as a tactic that helps build mass movements or radical consciousness in the long run.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm largely indifferent to it. I don't think it harms capital or the state whatsover, but I don't think that it keeps people away from "the movement", either. In some cases it may be what draws some young people in, actually. And if you can get a big enough group of people, it does look kinda cool:



Black Blocs in Germany (in Hamburg and Rostock) were considerable affairs, involving thousands of participants. Most of them in N. America are a fraction of that, and the idea that they need to be replicated at every demonstration is a very silly one, in my opinion. It's like some activists are stuck in a WTO Seattle time warp.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Black Blocs in Germany (in Hamburg and Rostock) were considerable affairs, involving thousands of participants. Most of them in N. America are a fraction of that, and the idea that they need to be replicated at every demonstration is a very silly one, in my opinion. It's like some activists are stuck in a WTO Seattle time warp.

Yeah, I think that's right about the US. It just became this sort of rinse and repeat type ritual not that different than the mass marches themselves - both sides of that coin saw one tactic as the "winning" tactic regardless of the political needs and conditions at the time.

I guess my main argument would be that I don't think it's the most effective use of our organizing time at this point. At the height of struggle, it would be probably a great tactic if we could organize some kind of street-level defense of occupied public buildings or workplace sit-ins or worker occupations. Then the reasons for that organization are more clear and can't be said to be "a bunch of kids who just want to break windows". And the actions would be more connected to the wider and more specifically class-oriented actions of strikes or whatnot.

[nuisance]

It's all about context.

I guess my main argument would be that I don't think it's the most effective use of our organizing time at this point.

Very few black bloc participants would regard the tactic as an attempt at organising anyone. Moreso it is the concious decision of individuals to actively participant in confronting their immediate coercive conditions head on, finding accomplices on the ground. People meeting to seek these ends also highlight different types of opposition that can attract different elelments of the multitude- for example it is these tactics that have given rise to the militancy seen in the UK of late, with gangstas and shit running with the bloc, opposed to marching. Believe it or not, but alot of people are actually turned on by such destructive capabilites.

Black bloc does not negate anyother forms of activity or organising initatives that the individuals may also be involved in.

At the height of struggle, it would be probably a great tactic if we could organize some kind of street-level defense of occupied public buildings or workplace sit-ins or worker occupations.

Why wait? Would it not be better to utilise and practice with the tools we already have at hand, interveneing to try and generalise revolt through coordinated groups that would know what they are doing? Not only but it would bring new levels of confidence and a refusal to watch things wash over them without but a word.

Then the reasons for that organization are more clear and can't be said to be "a bunch of kids who just want to break windows". And the actions would be more connected to the wider and more specifically class-oriented actions of strikes or whatnot.

What do you mean organisation, the tactic? I'd suggest not everyone believes that the black bloc is people that just want to bust windows out, despite the medias constant attempts to market it as such. However, as we have seen time and time again, these tactics are often the ones used by the dispossessed in times of turmoil or to meet their immediate struggle, even if they disapproved of the tactics prior.
We are not here to lead or organise the mass, it is down to the individual to discover their own revolutionary subjectivity, and this is brought about by experience.


Here's a decent critical look at the use of the black bloc from an anarchist perspective- http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11301

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I'll reply in detail when I have the time but I think nuisance summed it up for me when he said:

Black bloc does not negate anyother forms of activity or organising initatives that the individuals may also be involved in.