Irish polical prisoners

[fionntan]

Even the point of ''Irish Nationalism'' is pathetic. A united working class of the UK & Ireland is a lot stronger than your Catholic dominated theocracy and that's the reason why Unionists don't want reunification and you morons can't see that. You guys will say anything for your precious ''anti-imperialism''. And fionntan, the 32CSM is the RIRA's political mouthpiece, nothing more. Yeah, they are also responsible for the Omagh bomb and you's can't dismiss it or say its stupid that I brought it up. You may want reunification with the south but we honestly don't want you, at this current moment in time it's impossible for reunification, you really think another 6 counties can be supported?

Its irelavant what some west brits in the 26 counties want yourself being one of them. Can you address the points i made?

And please drop the titile commie from your user name...

[Jolly Red Giant]

You're ignoring the fundamental distinction between the Loyalist working class and the Nationalist working class - that the Loyalist working class, because of its privilege relative to the Nationalist working class, is orientated around support for rightist Orange ideology and a continued British Imperialist presence in Ireland. Connolly referred to them as 'slaves in spirit because they have been reared up among a people whose conditions of servitude are more slavish than their own'. Nationalists aren't to blame for a lack of proletarian unity in the Six Counties - British Imperialism is, and unity can only develop once British Imperialism is vanquished from Ireland.

Quoting Connolly and attempting to transplant his view of Belfast in 1913 into the North of 2011 is an utterly mechancial approach that has no use or role in a socialist understanding of the situation in the North. Furthermore. minor privileges of the Protestant working class did not stop a large scale mass movement of a united working class in Belfast in 1919. The cowardice and gutlessness of the leadership of the ILPTUC facilitated the pogroms of the following year. It is also interesting to note the assessment of Sinn Fein in 1920 when they held the view that 'labour in Belfast is not Carsonite in outlook but clearly internationalist' (from Dail Cabinet documents held in the National Archives in Dublin).

The days of any privilage for the Protestant working class are long gone and have been for years - the only people who peddle such nonsense are those interested in the continued division of working class people in the North.

I also refer Jolly Red Giant to another quotation from the same article, that 'the historical backgrounds of the movement in England and Ireland are so essentially different that the Irish Socialist movement can only be truly served by a party indigenous to the soil'. Can he argue that organisations such as the SP and SWP in Ireland, which effectively operate as franchises of organisations across the water really fulfil that criteria? The CWI even operates a largely separate organisation with a separate website in the Six Counties.

It is a gross insult to the members of the Socialist Party/ CWI in Ireland are a 'franchise' of the English group. The Socialist Party / CWI in Ireland is a seperate political organisation affilitated to the CWI with the same rights, entitlements and responsibilities as every other affiliate of the CWI. Indeed at international events we tend to congregate with groups from other countries because we are fed up with the Brits cheating at soccer (which they insist on calling football) and they can't keep pace with us when it comes to having a few pints.

If is furthermore an utter lie that the Socialist Party in Ireland operates as anything other than a single organisation on this island. There is one organisation, one National Committee, one Executive Committee, one National Conference, one National Secretary etc. etc. etc. The Socialist Party in Ireland has two regional sub-committees for the simple practical reason that the Irish organisation operates within two existing capitalist states, run by two different governments etc.etc. - and the Northern Website exists for that simple reason - it is no different than having a regional website in Cork, Limerick, Galway or anywhere else.

If you support the POWs you would attend protests supportimg them. I have yet to hear of yous doing so.

Why would we support protests design to increase support for anti-GFA republicans - we are socialists not republicans. The treatment or the republican prisoners is being used by 'dissident' republican groups to increase their own support in Catholic communities - it has little to do with campaigning for prisoners rights. Indeed it is in the interest of these republican groups that these rights are not won.

Why would you give the same rights to common criminal that the pows should have.

Are you suggesting the 'common criminals' - many of them economic pows - deserve any less democratic rights because they are not republican pows? In 2009 over 3,500 people were jailed in the Rep. of Ireland for refusing or being unable to pay fines - do you class these people as 'common criminals' ?

Given the fact that the hunger strikers in 1981 recognised that this distinction should not be made - why don't you adopt a similar approach and support the rights of all prisoners to 'free association' and 'no strip searches'. Prison after all is supposed to be about rehabilitation and mistreatment of all prisoners should be condemned by all.

The POWs are political prisioners and should be treated that way. Even the nazis gave british soldiers pow status.

The Nazis also gassed about six million jews and a killed a couple of million socialists. communists, homosexuals, gypsies and disabled people - so what?

All that crap about the 32s is redundent too as many of the pows have to connection to them.

All the republican prisoners who have had they licence revoked on spurious grounds should be released - whether they have any connection to the 32csm or not.

Also if you oppose sectarian parades where you in ardoyne or newtonbutler supporting the local residents?

This statement from the Socialist Party on parades is from 2000 - but the arguments outlined in it are just as relevent today -

http://www.socialistpartyni.net/stat...socialist-view

All that stuff about why you didnt support the armed resistance against imperialism is nonsense too.

Please explain why the Socialist Party should support a strategy that has been an abject failure for over a century? A united ireland is no closer now than it was when the Brits passed the Third Home Rule Bill in 1912 and the republican strategy hasn't changed either.

[CommieTroll]

so you know the kind of them??? With that statement i conclude that you dont actualy know any but you know that working class republican type that frightings the average rich kid at a demo. Those terrible lads who live in the tower blocks and were track suits but talk politics. Im not supprised you call people thugs educated working class youths must put the fear of god in you. And again the 32 CSM didnt and dont plant bombs.

Its irelavant what some west brits in the 26 counties want yourself being one of them. Can you address the points i made?

And please drop the titile commie from your user name...

Mainly I can't really understand the gist of what you are trying to say, mainly because you don't have decent grammar. Yes, I do know the kind of them, I've seen the conflict first hand, now it's just random bomb scares and killing unsuspecting policemen (don't even bother going off about that, I know you will probably jump at the chance to make a rant about how I'm wrong along with the ''British Invaders'' that call themselves the PSNI, probably RUC to you). You Republican fetishists rant on & on about how you're fighting imperialism but in reality your a bunch of fucking cowards that'll never pull the trigger on anyone. Drop this republican shit and read some Marx, might do you some good. You think its good for ''anti imperialism'' to massacre school children? You think I'm a west brit? Technically you're a brit, you're living in the north aren't you? Haha, ''drop the Commie part'' I see what ya did there. Ever think of changing your's to sectarian bigot?

[fionntan]

Mainly I can't really understand the gist of what you are trying to say, mainly because you don't have decent grammar. Yes, I do know the kind of them, I've seen the conflict first hand, now it's just random bomb scares and killing unsuspecting policemen (don't even bother going off about that, I know you will probably jump at the chance to make a rant about how I'm wrong along with the ''British Invaders'' that call themselves the PSNI, probably RUC to you). You Republican fetishists rant on & on about how you're fighting imperialism but in reality your a bunch of fucking cowards that'll never pull the trigger on anyone. Drop this republican shit and read some Marx, might do you some good. You think its good for ''anti imperialism'' to massacre school children? You think I'm a west brit? Technically you're a brit, you're living in the north aren't you? Haha, ''drop the Commie part'' I see what ya did there. Ever think of changing your's to sectarian bigot?

.....

[manic expression]

You think I'm a west brit?

You already admitted that you hate Ireland, so why are you surprised at that term?

[Crux]

You already admitted that you hate Ireland, so why are you surprised at that term?

He did? Where?

[manic expression]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/ireland-t1....html?t=160575

A few posts from the first.

[Invader Zim]

You already admitted that you hate Ireland, so why are you surprised at that term?

I think you would need to know more about the root of that distaste to justify the label.

[Jolly Red Giant]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/ireland-t1....html?t=160575

A few posts from the first.

You mean this -

I live in Ireland, I hate this country

In all honesty - talk about shoving your head up your rear end.

Ireland is a shite country run by a bunch of gombeen spivs lining their own pockets and the green-tinted romantics yearning for yesteryear without the Brits when we were all happy together.

I hate this country and everything it stands for - speculation, poverty, debt, austerity and all the nonsense that goes with it. I have an absolute confidence in the ability and the willingness of working class people in this country to change the society we live in for the better and I can't wait for the day it happens.

[Tifosi]

You already admitted that you hate Ireland, so why are you surprised at that term?

Because the term 'West Brit' is used by Irish Republicans to attack people they think support neo-Unionism.

A Irish person saying they hate living where they do doesn't equal neo-Unionism.

[manic expression]

Ireland is a shite country run by a bunch of gombeen spivs lining their own pockets and the green-tinted romantics yearning for yesteryear without the Brits when we were all happy together.

I hate this country and everything it stands for - speculation, poverty, debt, austerity and all the nonsense that goes with it. I have an absolute confidence in the ability and the willingness of working class people in this country to change the society we live in for the better and I can't wait for the day it happens.

Wow. Well, I appreciate the honesty...I think. Just curious, maybe I didn't see it in your post here, but...if you hate Ireland, how can you have confidence in the masses of Ireland?

I think you would need to know more about the root of that distaste to justify the label.

Perhaps, but someone who just says that kind of thing without much explanation shouldn't be shocked when the label comes up.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Wow. Well, I appreciate the honesty...I think. Just curious, maybe I didn't see it in your post here, but...if you hate Ireland, how can you have confidence in the masses of Ireland?

1. Do you like the USA - run by right-wing neo-liberal bankers and weapons manufacturers (coat-tailed by the fundementalist Christian right)?

If yes - then you are a moron who should not be on this forum

If no - then you feel the same way about the USA as I do about Ireland

2. Do you think the American working class are capable of changing society for the better through socialist revolution?

If yes - then you feel the same way about the American working class as I do about the Irish working class

If no - then you are a moron who should not be on this forum (and shouldn't class yourself as a socialist)

[manic expression]

1. Do you like the USA - run by right-wing neo-liberal bankers and weapons manufacturers (coat-tailed by the fundementalist Christian right)?

It could be run by Mussolini's hat and I would still care very deeply for its cultures and above all its peoples. There are a great many things I dislike about the US, there are many things I disagree with as much as one can, but I do not assign that so broadly, and I never forget that what makes a country is not the class and state that rules over it.

James Connolly saw an Ireland ruled by one of the most despicable imperialist gangs in recent history...and yet how did he speak of Ireland? With hatred and scorn? I think not.

[CommieTroll]

You already admitted that you hate Ireland, so why are you surprised at that term?

It doesn't mean I find Britain any better, and that statement could have been about numerous different aspects about life in Ireland. I guess I'll have to explain myself then, I hate the weather here, the school system, the government and the cost of living. I didn't mean the culture or the people so I don't see how I could be classed as a ''west brit''

[CommieTroll]

And politically we are a joke, we let the Catholic Church basically rule us for over a 1000 years (that's longer than the British presence and to an extent we still are letting Rome get away with too much) where they had a major say in social and political aspects of Irish life, even until we joined the EU we had a horrible infrastructure and a poor education system (in my opinion we still do), we are seen internationally as alcoholics and conservative catholics. We let our national language go to the verge of extinction. Millions of our working class have emigrated to the USA, Britain and Australia throughout our history in which they helped the economic greatness of those countries, shall I go on? We let Fina Fail line their pockets during an imaginary ''economic boom'' and let financial lending get out of control but what do I know, fuck it, pass me my whiskey.

[manic expression]

It doesn't mean I find Britain any better, and that statement could have been about numerous different aspects about life in Ireland. I guess I'll have to explain myself then, I hate the weather here, the school system, the government and the cost of living. I didn't mean the culture or the people so I don't see how I could be classed as a ''west brit''

OK, I hear that. Thanks for explaining what you meant.

[CommieTroll]

OK, I hear that. Thanks for explaining what you meant.

And the main reason I don't like being called that is just the fact that it's simply not true, and the fact that I'm Irish of course lol And I thought it was Leftist discussion, not mindless shit tossing

[Invader Zim]

I like the weather in the British Isles, myself. It's been pissing down today. Nothing like a good bit of rain to lighten the mood.

[Prometeo liberado]

this land was always ours
its the proud land of our fathers
it belongs to us and them
not to any of the others

Thought this would be a fine couplet from the Pogues. Sorry no Christie Moore

[Jolly Red Giant]

Socialist Party / CWI Statement calling for the Release of Marian Price

http://www.socialistpartyni.net/stat...ate-repression