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Marxist-Leninists should be restricted to OI.
I'm not apologizing anything, I'm just concluding that you are still bringing that subject up in regard to your dislike against Marxist-Leninists today. The people responsible are long gone, so I don't see why you keep others accountable.
I'm calling you an apologist for European imperialism, because dismissing the former sins of the Stalinist tendency on the basis that they were a long time ago implicitly offers much the same apology for 18th-20th century European imperialism. This strikes me as an inappropriate position for somebody who thinks to call themselves a "Marxist" to take.
I often have the feeling other radical leftists blame M-L'ists today for the condition of the communist cause. It's not really a strong point you know.
Mach kaputt was dich kaputt macht
Really. Laying words in my mouth. What a strong discussing tactic.
So you are comparing yourself with the offspring of those people who suffered hunderds of years and lost hundreds of millions to colonialism and slave trade? You think you stand on equal foot with them? Yeah their grand-grand parents where raped and slaughtered and humiliated but you feel them, because you have some vague political connection with Spanish volunteers who were betrayed. <----- You see, I can do that aswell. Not so cool eh? Piss off.
Mach kaputt was dich kaputt macht
I love the contradictions here. Trotskyists complain about "Stalinism" changing Soviet policy so, and then they complain that "Stalinism" did what Trotsky and his faction were proposing in the 20's anyway. Of course, that's only if you buy into the myth that "Stalinism" existed at all during that time. Hilarious. Basically, this thread is full of empty, self-defeating arguments that are based on the superficial vilification of an individual rather than a materialist perspective.
You're a clod. No, I don't consider myself the equivalent of the African people, but I do consider the hundreds of thousands who perished in revolutionary struggles because of the actions of "Marxists-Leninists" as deserving of more than the glib dismissal of "oh that's so 20th century," when in fact other clods, just like you, think it was just wonderful what happened in the 20th century.
You're the one who said that it happened so long ago that it doesn't matter. Well first off, not THAT long ago-- Chile, in which the CP did what it does best-- finger militants for the police, suppress the workers own organizations and actions against capitalism occurred 38 years ago... and secondly, there's only too many too willing to put on their little Marx-Lenin buttons and do it all over again.
So fuck off.
You sure as shit ain't.
His point is that if we don't hold stalinists responsible for the crimes of stalinism, why should be hold imperialists responsible for the crimes of imperialism?
No, most leftists don't blame the stalinists for the current condition of the Left. But it would help if every time socialism is discussed, we have to explain that the USSR, Red China, Eastern Europe, etc., were not socialism. And it would help if we didn't have to deal with leftists who still think they were.
RED DAVE
So you do think that remark about the slave trade was totally out of place? Good.
That other people think that what happened in spain was wonderfull does not make them my equals. Cause I do think that was terrible. I just don't think it holds any relevance in the position people take against eachother. Lucky for me I have no quarrels with most of the far-leftists I know. They don't hold me responsible or something. Atleast they dont say it to my face. Maybe they think worse of me being a leninist but if so then thats their problem really.
Mach kaputt was dich kaputt macht
April's Fools day was more than two months ago.
MARX-ENGELS-LENIN-STALIN
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not want our enemies to have guns, so why should we let them have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin
"Here, in the Soviet Union, I am not a Negro but a human being for the first time in my life ... I walk in full human dignity." - Paul RobesonSOLIDARITY
FREEDOM
Thats only if you consider every Leninist to be a supporter of Stalin. Which is one major problem for some of you obviously.
That should not be a real problem if your story is convincing. For the record: socialism means something different for Europeans. I don't claim that those states where communist aswell.
Mach kaputt was dich kaputt macht
So I take that you no longer adhere to the theory of "revisionism"?
It changed policy to the point that the temporary concessions Lenin's era made to statism and government authority were kept instead of discarded, and instead of being a Workers State it just went back to a regular old authoritarian, nationalist, bureaucratic ruled state.
Also the industrialisation wouldn't have been necessary had the revolutions in Germany and China had been handled correctly. I stumbled on this the other day, if Stalin told the CCP to break with the KMT (Who he stated was the only group CAPIBLE of winning the revolution) and if he told the Spartacus League to side with the SPD in a united front, to get rid of the fascists, the German revolution would have been won! If there's any problems please state them, this is something i put togather hastily in my head.
And just a side note, I remember distinctly the verbage Stalinists use while defending stalin was that "He won WW2, and he Industrialised the U.S.S.R." and I thought that was anti-material in itself because, as we know, the Russian people won WW2 and Industrialised the U.S.S.R. not Stalin. He just reaped the benefits.
For student organizing in california, join this group!
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1036
http://socialistorganizer.org/
"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
Yes nevermind the fact that the SPD had no intention whatsoever to cooperate with the communists. And forget the freikorps.
Mach kaputt was dich kaputt macht
I'm sure if it came down to cooperating with the Communists over being assaulted by the Fascists, they would have chosen the former.
For student organizing in california, join this group!
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1036
http://socialistorganizer.org/
"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
...........
And I've read here that someone claimed that Marxist-leninist dont know their basic history well. Read up instead of assuming things.
Gustav Noske (July 9, 1868 - November 30, 1946) was a German politician of the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD). He served as the first Minister of Defence of Germany between 1919 and 1920. He is noted for quelling the leftist uprisings in parts of Germany after World War I and for giving the order to assassinate Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht.
Mach kaputt was dich kaputt macht
Hey, jerk, I know it's tough to grasp, and it may be a blow to your infantile narcissism, but it's not always about you.
So when the clowns who call themselves "Marxists-Leninists" start their woofing about ice picks, and the POUM being fascists, and thank God the mighty Stalin was able to execute the fascist agents Bukharin, Radek, Zinoviev, Tukhachevsky... etc., Marxists take that seriously because we know those clowns are only too willing to dress themselves up in their little Halloween Stalin mustaches, and their little Vyshinsky spectacles and go trick or treating all over again.
If you're interested in this idea, PM me.
Huh?
(1) Are you saying that Europeans and Asians have different concepts of socialism?
(2) Are you saying that the Eastern European states were not socialist?
RED DAVE
Why?Originally Posted by Spectre
There's no grounds for restricting stalinists again, there wasn't the first time either.
"But like Trotskyites working with fascists in the USSR to plant no warning bombs to rip out the lungs of Soviet children from their tiny rib cages you will probably choose to turn a blind eye." - RedSunRising
RIP tech,you will be missed
Marxist Book Resource
"Anti-authoritarians" at their best.
"In your system, gentlemen fascists, to whom do the means of production belong? To individual capitalists and to groups of capitalists and, therefore, you cannot have genuine planning, except for bits, as the economy is divided among groups of owners." - J.V. Stalin
"[The children's] life will be better than ours; much of what was our life, they will not experience. Their lives will be less cruel. [...] Our generation has succeeded in doing a job of astounding historical importance. The cruelty of our life, forced upon us by conditions, will be understood and justified. It will all be understood, all of it!" -V. Lenin
The simple answer in my opinion is two things:
1. People look at Stalin and think "OH EM GEE GENOCIDAL MANIAC!!11one" or they are anti-authoritarian.
2. Many people have claimed to follow Marxism-Leninism
i.e. Revisionists after Stalin, North Korea (Before they removed it from their constitution) and that many "Communist" nations which still have ruling parties
which are horribly revisionist and/or Capitalist.
Pretty much the reasons as I see it.
Mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and exploited; and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division; and from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from fundamental facts. -Koba
