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It was certainly not to cuddle up with the imperialists, who, as we saw after the war, put their efforts completely against the U.S.S.R. and international communism.
A contract for mutual defense only benefits the weak imperialist states, they would not, couldn't, and didn't come to the aid of the Soviets in any significant way untill about 1942. A pact like that only served france because for some reason, france was seen more friendly to the soviets and communism? Or wait it must of been part of the whole popular front strategy that didn't work.
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"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
Is it true that Stalin accused Molotov's wife of spying for Israel, and after demanded that everyone shows their loyality in a public vote. According to the document Molotov didn't dare to vote and apologized Stalin a day after, but Stalin had already decided that he doesn't want to see Molotov again? Also if it was true, what happened to Molotov's wife and was she really spying or was Stalin just being paranoid?
Thanks for answers both of you.
Stalin supported Israel, whatchu talking about? Why would Molotov's wife of spied for them?
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"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
Google Polina_Zhemchuzhina and it says it on the wikipedia page, sorry can't post links.
Stalin distrusted her so much that she was imprisoned later, and the document said that Stalin thought she was spying for Israel.
Actually the whole "Molotov's wife was arrested for treason and espionage" stuff is true, Molotov himself stated in his memoir that he reunited with his wife (who had been released after Stalin's death) at Stalin's funeral. Both Molotov and his wife, however, remained ardently pro-Stalin to the end of their days. Apparently Stalin himself suspected towards the end of his life that Molotov was possibly an American agent, which obviously wasn't true either.
As for Israel, diplomatic relations were broken off in 1951 IIRC. The Soviets in 1947-48 figured that Israel had an active workers' movement (and obviously Soviet Jews tended to support Israel), whereas its Arab opponents were feudal and their armies led by British colonial officers. After Israeli independence and the end of the war with the Arabs, relations between it and the USSR quickly soured.
Look at this for the Soviet view of Israel and Zionism (which is attacked as being founded by "nationalists and mystics") in 1949: http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.or.../ehrenburg.htm
Last edited by Ismail; 11th August 2012 at 14:05.
* h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
* rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
* nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
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In the begining though, Stalin did in fact support Israel, unless his view was the same as Balfour, or non capitalist jews. Anyways, Molotov is a wierd character, and I honestly wouldn't trust him any farther than I could throw him. It takes a slimy guy to survive the purges, and rise to the top of the Bureaucracy.
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"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
Well, certainly not trade with a country that's bound to attack you in just a couple years' time! [Though I support the pact per se.]
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
It isn't much of a non-aggression pact if two countries refuse to trade with one-another. Various writers have noted that both the Soviets and Nazis benefited from it, the Soviets possibly more so.
* h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
* rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
* nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
* Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
Sure it still is. A basic non-aggression pact simply states two things: mutual recognition regarding legitimacy, and all parties committing not to attack one another. Beyond that, no party is obligated to trade with another. In fact, there can even be outright trade wars.
The Nazis benefitted from Soviet oil and war materials to try to bite the hands that fed them. I don't think the Soviets benefitted much.
Last edited by Die Neue Zeit; 12th August 2012 at 00:12.
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
For some reason, I highly doubt that refusing to trade, or having a trade war would've benefitted the USSR.
Listen comrade, what matters is that the USSR benefitted enough to win. What is the point of speculating about what they "could've done" better?
Last edited by Comrade Hill; 12th August 2012 at 02:02.
You "seriously doubt" that a trade war would hurt the already unstabile fascist economy, or would stop Hitler AND Mussilini from flying their planes and driving their tanks with fuel from the USSR? The soviets didn't benefit from it at all, they said "military knowlege" somewhere but they already had that, they were finishing up industrialization by that point and the Red Army could of attacked, literally at any point, according to accounts from General Georgi Zhukov, through the unstabile Nazi border. Stalin's opportunism led him to count on the Nazis going against the Entente countries, before the U.S.S.R. and he put everybody who said otherwise in jail!
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"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
Yes, I do. Having an unstable economy doesn't mean cutting off trade = no fuel or tanks. Much of the Third Reich's economic resources came from many parts of Europe, including Great Britain.
Please. It wasn't even until after Khrushchev's "secret speech" that people began to embrace this silly myth that Stalin murdered the "flower of the red army." There was quite a lot of opportunism in the Soviet government, which Stalin made an attempt to deal with. Generals such as Tukhachevsky were revealing military plans to the Third Reich. There was even a coup attempt before the war. Others who were guilty of treason admitted their guilt as well. There's really no debating this; your small-town gossip cannot change history.
well he purged the army and several marshals, the entire state apparatus, and forced confessions out of hundreds of thousands of people. That's what happened, and if you deny that you're dillusional. The opportunist elements were let in, by him, en masse into the party during the 1920s, and he might of purged some of them along with the actual revolutionaries.
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"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
I invite you to provide evidence that this happened. These confessions happened extremely quick, and most of these people were healthy and in their 40s. The Soviet "torturers" could've been met with much more resistance. I'm not sure who you think "actual revolutionaries" are. Hopefully you are not talking about factionalists.
Last edited by Comrade Hill; 12th August 2012 at 22:38.
The Soviets were doing just fine during the Phoney War, with little or no trade with the Nazis.
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
I think the weight is on you, to provide actual evidence that say Trotsky's son, or Kamanev's familly were guilty, with evidence besides of "confessions." Which as we know, from the 9/11 experiance, are not the most reliable sources of truth. You can torture somebody for days, or threaten their familly and they'll admit to whatever. But the fact of the matter is that confessions are the only proof you can dig up, so your arguements will always be flawed while argueing the moscow trials.
For student organizing in california, join this group!
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"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
As Broody said above, the weight is on you. How do you explain the Bukharin episode? How do you explain the need to put an ice pick through Trotsky's head? How do you explain the extra-ordinary number of people suddenly denounced, exiled and/or executed in the late 1930s as 'counter-revolutionaries'?
Either the accusations were false and it was an intra- and extra-party purge of opposition political forces, or the central committee was inept in allowing so many counter-revolutionaries to fester for nearly two decades. Which is it?
On the contrary, Stalin supported "opening the doors," to the bolshevik party to peasants and petit bourgeois elements in the early 1920s, during the N.E.P. So if anything he purged the people who he allowed in the party whom in effect watered down the revolutionary nature of the bolshevik party.
For student organizing in california, join this group!
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1036
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"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
could someone please pm me in regards to questions i have on stalin? thank you comrades!
"Is it the navajo indians who make it a point always to leave in their woven rugs and other artifacts some slight imperfections, in order not to compete with the gods? I think it is. Well, i have no gods, and so i can't justify my shortcomings as do the navajos."
"The proletariat uses the state not in the interests of freedom, but in order to hold down its adversaries..." - Friedrich Engels
It's quite simple. Bukharin was a rightist and leader of the Right Opposition; he spoke of getting rid of Stalin and conspired with the Left Opposition against him. At one point during his open opposition he discussed the possibility of murdering him. In his last letter to Stalin while in prison he admitted that a few years earlier at an illegal conference of his followers one of them discussed killing Stalin and that he himself took no action to report this to the authorities.
Sudoplatov, the guy who organized the assassination of Trotsky, noted in his memoirs published after 1991 that Stalin called the man a "fascist hireling." It's long been confirmed that Trotsky after his exile from the USSR was still working to build up not only a new Left Opposition, but tried to establish contacts with what still existed of the Right Opposition as well. The Moscow Trials and pre-trial testimonies, of which there is no evidence Stalin didn't believe in them (he actively inquired about them, wrote letters to Kaganovich, Molotov, etc. talking about what the confessed were saying in private testimonies, etc.), evidently laid forth the view that Trotsky had established ties with Nazi Germany, Britain, Japan, etc. in an effort to take power.
See J. Arch Getty's works on the subject. It's worth noting that into the very last years of Stalin's leadership suspicions were still around. For instance Ivan Maisky, one of the main Soviet diplomats, worked closely with the British during WWII and was praised by Churchill (including in his memoirs), which led Soviet authorities to suspect that Maisky had in fact become a paid agent. He was arrested in February 1953 and forced to "confess" (apparently stating among other things that Kollontai, who had passed away a year earlier, was also involved in British or American intelligence.) Voroshilov was accused of being a British agent as well. Unlike Molotov, who remained loyal to Stalin to the end of his life despite growing suspicion of him while Stalin was alive (under the same fear, that he had become a British agent), Maisky endorsed Khrushchev and opposed the supposed "whitewashing" of Stalin done after the rise of Brezhnev. Voroshilov also endorsed Khrushchev.
* h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
* rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
* nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
* Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
