The Stalin Thread 2: all discussion about Stalin (as a person) in this thread please

[Камо́ Зэд]

What does Trotsky need to say?
Following the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, Russia became the 1st nation to legalize homosexuality. The new Bolshevik legal code contained within it the concept that if there was no victim, there was no crime. Ergo Trotsky had absolutely no problem with Homosexuals or Homosexuality and neither did Lenin

So because Trotsky kept silent on the issue of homosexuality (which was the original argument, remember), that means he not only approved of it, but played an active role in its decriminalization.

That does not follow. You need to cite one thing he ever says about homosexuality or else Trotsky is an absolutely trivial figure with regards to the issue.

[Ismail]

Whether that sounded unusual or not, after the Russian Revolution, Russia legalized Homosexuality and Abortion. There was no reason for Stalin to make them both illegal. If he were a true Leninist he would have seen that Lenin had no problem with Homosexuality or Abortion. Following the old Bolshevik code: "No Victim No Crime"

Again, abortion was restricted because of a perceived need to increase population growth. It wasn't viewed as "wrong," just contrary to government policy.

It also doesn't follow that Lenin "had no problem with Homosexuality," only that the Bolsheviks felt that it was an "aberration" that did not need to be illegal. Time "demonstrated," in the minds of Bolsheviks, that this was seemingly an incorrect view to take with all the reports of "homosexual pederasts," "cells" (Yezhov's homosexual encounters were later used against him as "evidence" that he was a foreign agent), etc.

I also am quite certain that the entire worldwide Trotskyist movement was silent about the issue of homosexuality. I can't find anything attacking the policy of criminalizing it from any Trotskyist paper written in the 30's-50's.

[Geiseric]

Again, abortion was restricted because of a perceived need to increase population growth. It wasn't viewed as "wrong," just contrary to government policy.

It also doesn't follow that Lenin "had no problem with Homosexuality," only that the Bolsheviks felt that it was an "aberration" that did not need to be illegal. Time "demonstrated," in the minds of Bolsheviks, that this was seemingly an incorrect view to take with all the reports of "homosexual pederasts," "cells" (Yezhov's homosexual encounters were later used against him as "evidence" that he was a foreign agent), etc.

I also am quite certain that the entire worldwide Trotskyist movement was silent about the issue of homosexuality. I can't find anything attacking the policy of criminalizing it from any Trotskyist paper written in the 30's-50's.

It doesn't matter why, it matters that it was made illegal! You're missing the point! Birth rates aren't important to a pregnant poor woman. They could give a fuck less, and you're forcing them to care for a child when they're not ready for it. Unless you're one of those "You fucked yourself over by not using a condom," people, which is just as bad.

You're still not saying that it was abhorent and you condemn it, meaning that you would of done the same thing.

At least Trotskyists didn't mount an offensive against homosexuality, like Stalin did. He reversed what Lenin and what revolutionary russian workers decided, so no matter how you twist it, he contradicted the person who his ideology is named after, and returned to Tsarist type oppression towards gays. They and the rest of the allies didn't let them out of german concentration camps, or were often re-imprisoned because they were gay.

[fug]

Sorry for the off-topic, but you've yet to give any proof that Trotsky cared about homosexulity at all.

Also:
The working class hates faggots, women's libbers and hippies, and so do we!
A quote by a prominent Trotskyst T.Wohlforth.

[Камо́ Зэд]

It doesn't matter why, it matters that it was made illegal! You're missing the point! Birth rates aren't important to a pregnant poor woman. They could give a fuck less, and you're forcing them to care for a child when they're not ready for it. Unless you're one of those "You fucked yourself over by not using a condom," people, which is just as bad.

You're still not saying that it was abhorent and you condemn it, meaning that you would of done the same thing.

At least Trotskyists didn't mount an offensive against homosexuality, like Stalin did. He reversed what Lenin and what revolutionary russian workers decided, so no matter how you twist it, he contradicted the person who his ideology is named after, and returned to Tsarist type oppression towards gays.

What you're saying is that being silent as evil is done is perfectly acceptable. That isn't true in the least.

[Solidarity]

Again, abortion was restricted because of a perceived need to increase population growth. It wasn't viewed as "wrong," just contrary to government policy.

A population problem? Care to elaborate?

I also am quite certain that the entire worldwide Trotskyist movement was silent about the issue of homosexuality. I can't find anything attacking the policy of criminalizing it from any Trotskyist paper written in the 30's-50's.

So there was no need for it to be illegal after the Russian Revolution, but in the time of Stalin it had to be illegal? Not only illegal but open homosexuals were forced to work in Gulag Labor camps. I can't quite understand what you are trying to say here. That there were reports of pedophilia in the USSR and so the heads if the state decided it was time to outlaw homosexuality? Obviously, if any of the Bolsheviks had a problem with Homosexuality then they wouldn't of made it legal in Russia. You are correct there wasn't a big emphasis from Trotsky about the oppression of homosexuals by Stalinists. But again Trotsky had no problems with homosexuals otherwise he would of said something before they decided to make it legal. And, unlike Stalin, he didn't go bizerk and try to enslave everyone

[Geiseric]

What the fuck, he wasn't silent, he approved of and was a major head of government while the laws were passed after the revolution! Besides, how much research have you actually done on the subject of Trotsky on homosexuality? I have a feeling you're just assuming this for the sake of taking the blame off Stalin. I know for sure that Trotskyists have been involved in gay rights, which i'm also sure that Stalinists have.

However for the sake of increasing my intelligence i'm going to look up what Trotskyist parties have had to do with gay rights.

[Geiseric]

Sorry for the off-topic, but you've yet to give any proof that Trotsky cared about homosexulity at all.

Also:
The working class hates faggots, women's libbers and hippies, and so do we!
A quote by a prominent Trotskyst T.Wohlforth.

Well you said it, it's off topic! You should start a new thread.

I'm a trotskyist and i've never heard of Wohlforth. However feminism and gay rights are part of our present party program, so you're beaten by your own logic.

Besides that quote doesn't reflect the entire movement. It would be like me saying that Marx's anti jewish mentality means communists need to hate jews.

[Камо́ Зэд]

What the fuck, he wasn't silent, he approved of and was a major head of government while the laws were passed after the revolution! Besides, how much research have you actually done on the subject of Trotsky on homosexuality? I have a feeling you're just assuming this for the sake of taking the blame off Stalin. I know for sure that Trotskyists have been involved in gay rights, which i'm also sure that Stalinists have.

However for the sake of increasing my intelligence i'm going to look up what Trotskyist parties have had to do with gay rights.

Then cite Trotsky not being silent. Even just once.

I'm a trotskyist and i've never heard of Wohlforth. However feminism and gay rights are part of our present party program, so you're beaten by your own logic.

Not even a little bit. It's so far the only citation from any Trotskyist regarding gay rights.

[Geiseric]

This is rediculous. I'm not going to respond anymore to this or any other stalin thread for now on, because trying to convince Stalinists of anything is a complete waste of time.

This isn't about Trotsky, but I know as a fact that he wasn't homophobic, racist, or a possessor of any kind of bourgeois culture, because he understood racism, homophobia, sexism as things that divide the proletariat, like Marx and Engels did. Stalin was trying to create nationalism inside of the U.S.S.R, and bring back backwardsness, for example, he brought back the Russian Orthodox Church, and minorities were constantly oppressed and harassed throughout the entire history of the U.S.S.R. See I don't need cites for those, because it's common knowlege, that mass deportations of non Russians happened during the industrialization, and after world war 2 (or the Great Patriotic War, a nationalist coining) ended.

[James Connolly]

convince Stalinists of anything is a complete waste of time.

It is interesting how you expect 'Stalinists' to agree with you when you have nothing to share but speculations and logical fallacies.

This isn't about Trotsky, but I know as a fact that he wasn't homophobic, racist, or a possessor of any kind of bourgeois culture, because he understood racism, homophobia, sexism as things that divide the proletariat, like Marx and Engels did.

You can't claim facts when you have yet to prove anything. Besides Trotsky, a man who ignored the very basis of Dialectical Materialism, or Materialism in general with his Liberalistic Ultimate Ideals, isn't a model Marxist.

he brought back the Russian Orthodox Church, and minorities were constantly oppressed and harassed throughout the entire history of the U.S.S.R.

It amuses me that you'd criticize Stalin for oppression when, in the same sentence, you claimed he allowed religious activities to return rather than oppressing the Church.

And besides, this quote from Harry Haywood, who was an afro-American Communist, dispels such nonsensical garbage.

"In the Soviet Union, remnants of national and racial prejudice from the old society were attacked by education and law. It was a crime to give or receive direct or indirect privileges, or to exercise discrimination because of race or nationality. Any manifestation of racial or national superiority was punishable by law and was regarded as a serious political offense, a social crime.

During my entire stay in the Soviet Union, I encountered only one incident of racial hostility. It was on a Moscow streetcar. Several of us Black students had boarded the car on our way to spend an evening with our friend MacCloud. It was after rush hour and the car was only about half filled with Russian passengers. As usual, we were subjects of friendly curiosity. At one stop, a drunken Russian staggered aboard. Seeing us, he muttered (but loud enough for the whole car to hear) something about 'Black devils in our country.'

A group of outraged Russian passengers thereupon seized him and ordered the motorman to stop the car. It was a citizen's arrest, the first I had ever witnessed. 'How dare you, you scum, insult people who are guests in our country!'.

[...]

'No, citizens,' said a young man (who had done most of the talking), 'drunk or not, we don't allow this sort of thing in our country.'"

Harry Haywood. Black Bolshevik: Autobiography of an Afro-American Communist

See I don't need cites for those, because it's common knowlege, that mass deportations of non Russians happened during the industrialization, and after world war 2 (or the Great Patriotic War, a nationalist coining) ended.

Oh no, I guess common knowledge(Wikipedia) has defeated the Marxist-Leninist faction. Appealing to authority, and in this case a very vague example of authority, isn't going to help your argument. Knowledge is subjective, so it is really worthless to source 'common knowledge.'

[Ismail]

A population problem? Care to elaborate?

The Soviets wanted to increase population growth, as did the Romanians and Albanians. Restricting abortion (and FYI the decree restricting it also expanded maternity care) was seen as an effective way of doing that, and indeed the birth rate did increase.

So there was no need for it to be illegal after the Russian Revolution, but in the time of Stalin it had to be illegal?

Considering that Lenin died in 1924 and homosexuality wasn't criminalized until a decade later, evidently it was a gradual process in which homosexuality, associated with pedophilia and later fascism, was considered something that should be "stamped out." The common view was that homosexuality was either a mental illness or worse, and this was not something that decriminalization could magically fix.

Obviously, if any of the Bolsheviks had a problem with Homosexuality then they wouldn't of made it legal in Russia.

Which is why of the only two high-ranking gay Bolsheviks, one (Chicherin) spent a significant amount of time working to "cure" his homosexuality, and the other (Yezhov, bisexual) was pretty much like "yeah I had gay sex but was constantly ashamed and did most of it while drunk." The fact is that homosexuality, while not a criminal act in the 20's (except in Central Asia and some other places), was not accepted. That every single notable Bolshevik was totally silent in public on the issue, including Stalin, makes that pretty clear.

[Камо́ Зэд]

This is rediculous. I'm not going to respond anymore to this or any other stalin thread for now on, because trying to convince Stalinists of anything is a complete waste of time.

You know, in many cultures, it's considered an admirable trait to remain skeptical of someone's assertion even after they've repeated it sans evidence dozens of times.

This isn't about Trotsky, but I know as a fact that he wasn't homophobic, racist, or a possessor of any kind of bourgeois culture, because he understood racism, homophobia, sexism as things that divide the proletariat, like Marx and Engels did.

It should be a simple matter, then, to find even one single quote in which Trotsky himself addresses the issue of homosexuality. Marx and Engels themselves didn't say much about homosexuality in their published writing, but in their correspondences, Engels referred to gay men as "pederasts" and condemned homosexual love among Greek men as "morally deteriorated" and "loathsome" in Origin.

Stalin was trying to create nationalism inside of the U.S.S.R, and bring back backwardsness, for example, he brought back the Russian Orthodox Church, and minorities were constantly oppressed and harassed throughout the entire history of the U.S.S.R. See I don't need cites for those, because it's common knowlege, that mass deportations of non Russians happened during the industrialization, and after world war 2 (or the Great Patriotic War, a nationalist coining) ended.

See, if it's "common knowledge," then you shouldn't have any trouble at all finding citations or any kind of evidence for your claims. It really comes across as an excuse to make an assertion without having to do any of the work, which, in a nutshell, describes anti-Stalinism. You expect us to buy everything you say, sans any kind of evidence whatsoever, and when we don't buy into it after the thousandth time you've repeated your assertions, you decide to shut down debate by declaring everyone who disagrees with you somehow "incapable" of being educated.

[Ismail]

I like how when Albania completely illegalizes religion it's a terrible thing, but when Stalin during the biggest invasion in modern history tries to enlist the support of religious elements (not just the Orthodox Church but also the support of Islamic clergy was sought after) it's even worse. It's not like religious teaching was introduced in schools, as happened in Poland after 1956, or that religion developed any significant role outside of personal affairs.

[Solidarity]

Restricting abortion (and FYI the decree restricting it also expanded maternity care) was seen as an effective way of doing that, and indeed the birth rate did increase.

Well yeah it would increase, but why did they want it to increase. And at that, what right did they have to tell women what to do with their body? What was so important they had to invade woman's right to do what she want with her body.

That every single notable Bolshevik was totally silent in public on the issue, including Stalin, makes that pretty clear.

Whether Stalin and his office viewed it as a "mental illness" or not there was no just cause in sending them to the Gulag. A concentration camp for being homosexual? That's not right. We both know it's not right. And for those two who had the attraction for men. Just because those two felt that way doesn't mean the whole Homosexual population in the Soviet Union. And I am sure those two wouldn't want to be put in gulags.
I mean I can't understand you here are you saying because those two didn't like being gay Stalin had the right to put homosexuals in gulags?

[JoeySteel]

They wanted and needed the population to increase because the USSR, especially at that time, had a systemic labour shortage both built into the system and due to demographic factors. Birthrates were anticipated to be higher than actual, because the general correlation between urbanization, access to healthcare, and modernization and decreased births was not known at the time (see "From Farm to Factory"). The USSR had an inherent labour shortage because unlike in capitalist countries there was no need for a reserve army of labour, nor did there exist dynamics to create one, and because the execution of the economic plan, entailing constant large increases in production and production of the means of production and overall social product was always in need of more people to work to fulfill those goals. Fewer workers inherently limited the capacity to increase output. Population was a very, very big issue during socialist construction.

[Камо́ Зэд]

Whether Stalin and his office viewed it as a "mental illness" or not there was no just cause in sending them to the Gulag. A concentration camp for being homosexual? That's not right. We both know it's not right. And for those two who had the attraction for men. Just because those two felt that way doesn't mean the whole Homosexual population in the Soviet Union. And I am sure those two wouldn't want to be put in gulags.

Do you have anything to show that homosexuals were forced into the Gulag system proper?

[Solidarity]

Do you have anything to show that homosexuals were forced into the Gulag system proper?

Ummm yeah common sense, but if that don't do it for ya.......

In 1936 homosexuality became a political crime against the Soviet state and the "proletariat". It became an object of NKVD (later transformed into KGB) investigations, possibly with a view to recruiting new informers from among known homosexuals.

In the mid-1930s gays flooded into Soviet camps in their thousands, and the influx apparently remained steady throughout the years article 121 was in force. Alexander Solzhenitsyn called it a 'sordid' bit of legislation. In the Gulag Archipelago, dedicated to 'all those who did not live long enough to tell the story', there isn't a word of sympathy for oppressed homosexuals. Just as there isn't in Varlaam Shalamov's Kolyma Tales. Most dissident authors, while exposing the inhumanity of life in the camps, hold on firmly to camp attitudes in their contemptuous dismissal of gays and of homosexuality in general. Until very recently the issue remained taboo. Even when revelations about Stalinist repressions began to emerge, not a single human rights activist, neither in the USSR nor abroad, was seriously prepared to tackle the problem.

The fate of homosexuals in Soviet prisons and camps is unprecedented in the scope of its tragedy and brutality. Not only were the numbers vast, homosexual rape took place in every camp and prison without exception. Not only did the Soviet system fail to cure the 'foreign disease', it led to a dramatic growth in the numbers of homosexuals. Huge numbers of people who had not previously been gay became categorised as opushchennye (lit: crestfallen, degraded, downcast; also slang term for one who has been beaten up, raped and urinated upon).

http://slavamogutin.squarespace.com/gay-in-the-gulag

[Камо́ Зэд]

Ummm yeah common sense, but if that don't do it for ya.......

I can do without the attitude, Trot; "common sense" is almost invariably used to justify something demonstrably wrong. Next time, the citation by itself will do.

[Solidarity]

I can do without the attitude, Trot; "common sense" is almost invariably used to justify something demonstrably wrong. Next time, the citation by itself will do.

lol ok, Stalinist. But you get the point and I hope you read the rest at the link