The Stalin Thread 2: all discussion about Stalin (as a person) in this thread please

[Solidarity]

So, while Trotsky was around, no one ever got kicked out of the Party?

I'm not saying that. But they weren't killed out of the party.

What he meant was that Trotsky was at all responsible for this repeal. He wasn't. "Lenin and Trotsky" were not somehow co-leaders of the Soviet Union at any point.

Hmmmmmm.
They both lead the Russian Revolution together. Considering that fact, Trotsky would have an important say in Soviet Government regulations and laws.

[Art Vandelay]

What he meant was that Trotsky was at all responsible for this repeal. He wasn't. "Lenin and Trotsky" were not somehow co-leaders of the Soviet Union at any point.

You can read his mind can you? From what I saw, his post simply correctly concluded that when Trotsky and Lenin were in highly powerful positions in the USSR, homosexuality laws were lifted;when Stalin was at the height of his power, they were re-implemented. Now, obviously, we know that the USSR wasn't a place where one or two people had supreme decision making power, but don't attempt to distract away from the substance of what he was saying, by nitpicking over his wording.

[Art Vandelay]

So, while Trotsky was around, no one ever got kicked out of the Party?

Lenin and Trotsky were in favor of purges, the same way Marx and Engels were, however they simply kicked people out of the party, they didn't set up show trials and have communists executed.

[Камо́ Зэд]

I'm not saying that. But they weren't killed out of the party.

To purge someone from the Party means to kick someone out of it. A lot of people who were purged under Stalin actually got to come back to the Party.

Hmmmmmm.
They both lead the Russian Revolution together. Considering that fact, Trotsky would have an important say in Soviet Government regulations

That's an interesting line of reasoning, but it doesn't really have any basis in fact. Trotsky led the Red Army, but if you've ever read any of my posts, you know that in the past I've quoted Lenin quite extensively as to why Lenin thought Trotsky was a total scumbag.

[Камо́ Зэд]

You can read his mind can you? From what I saw, his post simply correctly concluded that when Trotsky and Lenin were in highly powerful positions in the USSR, homosexuality laws were lifted;when Stalin was at the height of his power, they were re-implemented. Now, obviously, we know that the USSR wasn't a place where one or two people had supreme decision making power, but don't attempt to distract away from the substance of what he was saying, by nitpicking over his wording.

Believe it or not, you don't need psychic powers to understand what someone is trying to say through their writing. In fact, and I may be wrong here, but I think that's the entire point of the written word.

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Trotsky had anything to do with the taking of sodomy laws off the books. It's not as though Stalin wasn't influential before he became General Secretary.

[Art Vandelay]

Believe it or not, you don't need psychic powers to understand what someone is trying to say through their writing. In fact, and I may be wrong here, but I think that's the entire point of the written word.

Someone is turning into much more of a smart ass then they were when they joined up.

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Trotsky had anything to do with the taking of sodomy laws off the books. It's not as though Stalin wasn't influential before he became General Secretary.

There is however, also no evidence to suggest that he did anything to stop them from being "taken off of the books." On the contrary there is alot of evidence to suggest that Stalin, being general secretary and all, must have had a little something to do with bringing them back.

[Камо́ Зэд]

S
There is however, also no evidence to suggest that he did anything to stop them from being "taken off of the books." On the contrary there is alot of evidence to suggest that Stalin, being general secretary and all, must have had a little something to do with bringing them back.

You realize that absolutely none of this is the same as saying that Leon was at all responsible for the sodomy laws being taken off the books, right? That was the point.

[Solidarity]

To purge someone from the Party means to kick someone out of it. A lot of people who were purged under Stalin actually got to come back to the Party.

Not the dead ones. Haven't you ever heard of something called the great purge? Campaigns set out to kill former Revolutionaries in the Soviet Union orchestrated by the beloved Comrade Stalin.

but if you've ever read any of my posts, you know that in the past I've quoted Lenin quite extensively as to why Lenin thought Trotsky was a total scumbag.

I must of missed that part. Considering the Fact Lenin said Trotsky is considerably the most able man to take Lenin's position when he dies:

Comrade Stalin, having become General Secretary, has concentrated an enormous power in his hands; and I am not sure that he always knows how to use that power with sufficient caution. On the other hand, Comrade Trotsky, as was proved by his struggle against the Central Committee in connection with the question of the People’s Commissariat of Ways and Communications, is distinguished not only by his exceptional abilities – personally he is, to be sure, the most able man in the present Central Committee..

I think you have Lenin's discuss confused with someone else:

Postscript: Stalin is too rude, and this fault, entirely supportable in relations among us Communists, becomes insupportable in the office of General Secretary. Therefore, I propose to the comrades to find a way to remove Stalin from that position and appoint to it another man who in all respects differs from Stalin only in superiority – namely, more patient, more loyal, more polite and more attentive to comrades, less capricious, etc.

All in Lenin's Testament.

And on the Homosexuality Laws.
Whether Stalin found Homo-Sexuality to be "Moral" or Not. There was no reason for them to be thrown in the cruel labor gulag camps.

[Art Vandelay]

You realize that absolutely none of this is the same as saying that Leon was at all responsible for the sodomy laws being taken off the books, right? That was the point.

And your simply attempting to distract away from the fact that Stalin helped to implement homophobic laws.

[Камо́ Зэд]

Not the dead ones. Haven't you ever heard of something called the great purge? Campaigns set out to kill former Revolutionaries in the Soviet Union orchestrated by the beloved Comrade Stalin.

Actually, it was orchestrated by several people including Yezhov, all of whom were executed by order of Stalin for their involvement in the judicial murder of the innocent.

I must of missed that part. Considering the Fact Lenin said Trotsky is considerably the most able man to take Lenin's position when he dies:

You must not have joined when I was explaining the Testament. See, the problems with it are as follows:

1. Lenin had suffered so many strokes that he was considered incompetent to do anything but lie in bed;
2. only his wife, who was a member of the opposition, had any contact with him besides his doctors; and
3. everything about the Testament contradicts absolutely everything Lenin had ever said about Trotsky in the past.

[Art Vandelay]

Actually, it was orchestrated by several people including Yezhov, all of whom were executed by order of Stalin for their involvement in the judicial murder of the innocent.



You must not have joined when I was explaining the Testament. See, the problems with it are as follows:

1. Lenin had suffered so many strokes that he was considered incompetent to do anything but lie in bed;
2. only his wife, who was a member of the opposition, had any contact with him besides his doctors; and
3. everything about the Testament contradicts absolutely everything Lenin had ever said about Trotsky in the past.

Relying on quotes from 1905-1917 (pre-revolution) are we?

[Ismail]

Was he now? I must have missed the part when the Soviet Union, under Lenin and Trotsky, took anti-sodomy laws off the books back in 1919.

Yeah, and? Evidently a great majority of Bolsheviks continued to view homosexuals as "degenerates" and there was no opposition when the criminal code was amended in the early 30's. And it still doesn't change the fact that Trotsky, who spoke out against restrictions on abortion and whatnot under "Stalinism," was completely silent on homosexuality.

[Solidarity]

Actually, it was orchestrated by several people including Yezhov, all of whom were executed by order of Stalin for their involvement in the judicial murder of the innocent.

So how ere all those people tied with killing innocent people. Some of those people were just former retired Revolutionaries. Not murders

[*]Lenin had suffered so many strokes that he was considered incompetent to do anything but lie in bed;[*]only his wife, who was a member of the opposition, had any contact with him besides his doctors; and[*]everything about the Testament contradicts absolutely everything Lenin had ever said about Trotsky in the past.[/LIST]

I'll make a list too:

1. Lenin wrote his will prior to March 1923
2. It was in March 1923 that Lenin suffered his third stroke which rendered him bedridden
3. Example please. Because it seems to me Lenin would have more respect for Trotsky considering their history together.

[Solidarity]

And it still doesn't change the fact that Trotsky, who spoke out against restrictions on abortion and whatnot, was again completely silent on homosexuality.

Considering Lenin and Trotsky and the rest of the Bolsheviks allowed Homosexuality and abortion during the time of Lenin. I'm pretty sure Trotsky's opinion on homosexuality was pretty well know. Whether Stalin and his peers found Homosexuality to be "Moral" or Not. There was no reason for them to be thrown in the cruel labor gulag camps.

[Камо́ Зэд]

Relying on quotes from 1905-1917 (pre-revolution) are we?

See any of my other posts. Lenin was hating on Trotsky from 1920 onward, particularly during the trade union dispute.

[Камо́ Зэд]

Considering Lenin and Trotsky and the rest of the Bolsheviks allowed Homosexuality and abortion during the time of Lenin. I'm pretty sure Trotsky's opinion on homosexuality was pretty well know. Whether Stalin and his peers found Homosexuality to be "Moral" or Not. There was no reason for them to be thrown in the cruel labor gulag camps.

Then cite one thing Trotsky ever said about homosexuality.

[Ismail]

Considering Lenin and Trotsky and the rest of the Bolsheviks allowed Homosexuality and abortion during the time of Lenin. I'm pretty sure Trotsky's opinion on homosexuality was pretty well know. Whether Stalin and his peers found Homosexuality to be "Moral" or Not. There was no reason for them to be thrown in the cruel labor gulag camps.

Actually morality had little to do with it. In the case of abortion, for instance, Sarah Davies notes in her book Popular Opinion in Stalin's Russia that the issue was publicly debated before the ban, and that "moral" arguments were almost entirely absent. It revolved pretty much entirely around whether or not women could have more children to increase the birthrate and whatnot. There was never any "abortion is murder"-type arguments, same thing in Albania and Romania.

Likewise the ban on homosexuality had little basis in "moral" arguments. See: http://www.workers.org/ww/2004/lgbtseries1007.php

In short, Yagoda reported that "homosexual pederasts," besides abusing children, were setting up espionage cells. Ridiculous as it sounds to modern ears, this didn't sound unusual to many people at the time.

[Solidarity]

Then cite one thing Trotsky ever said about homosexuality.

What does Trotsky need to say?
Following the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, Russia became the 1st nation to legalize homosexuality. The new Bolshevik legal code contained within it the concept that if there was no victim, there was no crime. Ergo Trotsky had absolutely no problem with Homosexuals or Homosexuality and neither did Lenin

[Ismail]

What does Trotsky need to say?
Following the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, Russia became the 1st nation to legalize homosexuality. The new Bolshevik legal code contained within it the concept that if there was no victim, there was no crime. Ergo Trotsky had absolutely no problem with Homosexuals or Homosexuality and neither did Lenin

Neither did Stalin, apparently, since he had just as much to do with abolishing the legal code as Trotsky did, or any other Bolshevik in the government.

[Solidarity]

In short, Yagoda reported that "homosexual pederasts," besides abusing children, were setting up espionage cells. Ridiculous as it sounds to modern ears, this didn't sound unusual to many people at the time.

Whether that sounded unusual or not, after the Russian Revolution, Russia legalized Homosexuality and Abortion. There was no reason for Stalin to make them both illegal. If he were a true Leninist he would have seen that Lenin had no problem with Homosexuality or Abortion. Following the old Bolshevik code: "No Victim No Crime"