Qaddafi Supporters

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Should be restricted. The fact that gacky, for example, is restricted for opposing abortion rights seems absurd when posters are opposing revolution on a forum supposedly for revolutionary leftists.

The revolutionary left is completely dead in the US, for one. It's a corpse that, quite frankly, I don't think progressives should cry about. But that's another issue. The issue to me now is how the fuck can we watch these young men take bullets in their chests for the yearning of freedom and deride them as neoliberal forces. Not even that, the fact that these peoples certainly don't see it as a bullshit expression that 'freedom' has come to mean in the west, but real remove the dictator from power or die trying freedom (whatever that feels like).

To me, western leaders who talk about how these arab peoples should embrace democracy are the epitome of hypocrisy and the colonial mindset manifesting itself is digusting (also other arab peoples who the west feels shouldn't strive to democracy, specifically the shia in Bahrain, highlights the hypocrisy even further). The peoples who rose up are an inspiration to the dispossesed the world over. Granted, I have stated before, that I hope these countries embrace secular, democratic rule over time. I'm glad that in Egypt, after some sectarian clashes, the state is firmly saying that such things will not be tolerated.

The treatment of africans by some rebels in Libya is disgusting. However, these bursts of hatred do not in my opinion do not remove the legitimacy of the revolution. Let's say the tables are turned in Syria and Alawites begin to be slaughtered en masse--while it would be disgusting and barbaric, it would not be unpredictable granted the oppression this minority has imposed (ditto for sunni's in Bahrain). I am NOT saying that I would support these things, I AM saying that these minorities need to readdress their power structures or it is a posibility. On a related note, I don't think Israelis should share the fear (ultra-paranoid Israelis are annoying as fuck) but they share the fact that right now they have the power, all of it, and should change their reality from a position of stregnth, because they will never be able to make a deal out of weakness.


I am not saying that we all have to agree with the no-fly zone, or western intervention at all. I am firmly in support of this limited intervention, as I believe that the rebels were begging for it, and after Iraq and Afghanistan it seems very different. Arabs waving american flags, I have to admit, got to me a little bit. I also believe that, after seeing Libyans rise up all over the country, including tripoli, and were brutally crushed that discontent and yearning for change runs deep. Today, it is said that Misrata is the only rebel held city in the west, but weeks ago Misrata was one of many and indeed refered to as the last that hadn't been crushed by the Libyan Army/Mercenaries. It was only when most cities has fallen, and Beghazi was on the verge, that the west intervened.

I do not know what the furture holds. All I know is that these revolutionaries should serve as an inspiration to us all.

There's a great article in the New Yorker this issue, about a group of 3 men in one family, all libyan immigrants living in virginia, who went to Benghazi to fight. The story ended, after giving the authors experiences in the ups and downs of the struggle, with the old man finding the body of his eldest son and was overjoyed that he could be buried properly. More respect should be given to that man, who gave his life in the struggle, than any of the bullshit peaceneviks marching around any city in the US imo.

This is the revolution. How the fuck can someone claim to be a revolutionary and not support the revolution?

Can someone explain this to me? I understand that it's a bloody struggle, no doubt, however if anyone suggests that the Spanish revolutionaries should have gone home and given into fascism (indeed, that the POUM for example was a secret fascist conspiracy, what Orwell says the supposedly leftist press printed at the time) instead of fighting in a nasty civil war would be restricted without much question.

I ask that the equal treatment be given when denouncing contemporary revolutionaries.

[#FF0000]

The treatment of africans by some rebels in Libya is disgusting. However, these bursts of hatred do not in my opinion do not remove the legitimacy of the revolution.

No. The fact that the rebellion's been co-opted and now any serious rebels left are fighting on behalf of the World Bank does that.

This is the revolution. How the fuck can someone claim to be a revolutionary and not support the revolution?

Banker wars =/= revolution

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

These rebels fighting on behalf of the World Bank? What the fuck kind of conspiracy theory is this? Ever consider that these people are fighting in order to avoid being massacred? I gurantee that the rebels remember these, and know that if they let the snake roam free they are sure to get bitten. They have much longer memories than we do of course.


The POUM isn't a revolutionary force, it's a front to impose fascism. This is exactly what this sounds like. I am not refering to mr Koussa or whoever claims to represent the people, I am refering to the men and women at the front, to the men and women who have formed underground networks throughout all of Libya, to the people in this world who are preparing themselves to die for a better future.

A Serbian newspaper reported that Serbian mercenaries were among the first to kill protesting civilians.[183] Reports from Libya confirmed the presence of Ukrainian and Serbian mercenaries.[184] A Libyan economist claimed[who?] that Serbian pilots were flying the planes that bombed protesting civilians because Libyan pilots refused to do so.[185] Gaddafi also used Serbian fighters when he put down a civilian uprising in the 1990s.[186][187]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar..._for_massacres

They may have western support, but you calling these rebels agents of the world bank is absurd and clearly a distorted view. Even if they are being funded by the world bank, I have no qualms when your enemy is paying mercenaries to massacre people (we can talk about the evilness of blackwater (no sarcasm) elsewhere, let's please keep this on topic).


I honestly have no idea where this banker wars bit is coming from, please enlighten me. All I have read that's related is Switzerland confiscating Qaddafis funds and being unclear about giving it back to Libya. Otherwise your post stinks of westerners again judging men and women dying to be free, and this is disturbing.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Let's expand it then, actually. This conflict began directly after the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt, and many many rebels have say this was the inspiration. I don't think it can be denied that the 'arab spring' led to this.

The revolutionaries in Tunisia and Egypt--also western imperlialists in disquise I assume then?

and expand it further:

Green Movement in Iran -- Imperialist agents or not?
Opposition in Syria, same question
Bahrain, I think we can all agree, does not need this to be asked

[#FF0000]

These rebels fighting on behalf of the World Bank? What the fuck kind of conspiracy theory is this?

Oh actually it's a fact based on even the most cursory glance at any of the news related to Libya.

Libyan Rebels Form Their Own Central Bank

World Bank already making plans about what to do with Libya and it's new, privately owned, central bank (And the huge gold reserves wherein)

And

A broader view, explaining why the west is getting involved in Libya, the Ivory Coast, et al.

Oh and I also found this from John Perkins when I went a googlin' to find some of my sources again for this post.

So, yeah. I'm sure the rebels on an individual level just want "freedom", and want to get rid of Gaddafi. Understandable. They're not wrong in wanting that. But it is the height of naivety to think that Western involvement doesn't mean something and isn't co-opting what might have been an honest rebellion.

They may have western support, but you calling these rebels agents of the world bank is absurd and clearly a distorted view. Even if they are being funded by the world bank, I have no qualms when your enemy is paying mercenaries to massacre people (we can talk about the evilness of blackwater (no sarcasm) elsewhere, let's please keep this on topic).

Big picture, dude. The World Bank and IMF aren't interested in freedom. They're interested in cashbux and cracking open some central banks.

Sorry, bro. This isn't just a knee-jerk reaction and someone crying out IMPERIALISM. This is imperialism, as pure as it gets.

[#FF0000]

Let's expand it then, actually. This conflict began directly after the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt, and many many rebels have say this was the inspiration. I don't think it can be denied that the 'arab spring' led to this.

The revolutionaries in Tunisia and Egypt--also western imperlialists in disquise I assume then?

and expand it further:

Green Movement in Iran -- Imperialist agents or not?
Opposition in Syria, same question
Bahrain, I think we can all agree, does not need this to be asked

Uh, no. These, I think, were legitimate instances of class struggle. Libya is not. At least, not in the same way.

[Thug Lessons]

Let's expand it then, actually. This conflict began directly after the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt, and many many rebels have say this was the inspiration. I don't think it can be denied that the 'arab spring' led to this.

The revolutionaries in Tunisia and Egypt--also western imperlialists in disquise I assume then?

and expand it further:

Green Movement in Iran -- Imperialist agents or not?
Opposition in Syria, same question
Bahrain, I think we can all agree, does not need this to be asked

French Revolution: Amerikkkan imperialist plot? I bet people who are less than convinced by the democratic rhetoric of anti-Gaddafi forces think so. They're just crazy like that man.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Oh actually it's a fact based on even the most cursory glance at any of the news related to Libya.

Libyan Rebels Form Their Own Central Bank

World Bank already making plans about what to do with Libya and it's new, privately owned, central bank (And the huge gold reserves wherein)

And

A broader view, explaining why the west is getting involved in Libya, the Ivory Coast, et al.

Like I said in my initial post, whether or not there is disagreement in the wests intervention in libya is not the point I am making. Obviously the western bankers are going to try and exploit these countries after the revolutions, just like Iran/Syria would be potentially opened up for western imperialism should those regimes fall.

What you have posted is

1. Libyans in the east created a central bank to handle finances.

2. The west wants to make money off of Libya

3. The west likes exploiting people.

What you have posted highlights the failures of the left here, of our pitifully pathetic movements.

Meanwhile, there can be no doubt that the protests which launched this attempt at revolution was fueled by the detrimental policies of neoliberalism couples with the abusive regime that has been in power for 42 years.

Big picture, dude. The World Bank and IMF aren't interested in freedom. They're interested in cashbux and cracking open some central banks.

Sorry, bro. This isn't just a knee-jerk reaction and someone crying out IMPERIALISM. This is imperialism, as pure as it gets.

Ah, yes, here it is. Our power structures are fucked up, and because they want to exploit the Libyans, their revolution is not legitimate.

Wake up, bro. The Soviet Union is long gone, if you want help (which is clearly needed here) to overthrow a tyrannical dictator with a history of massacring people, who made peacful revolution impossible by killing hundreds of protestors across the country with his mercenaries, you better be ready to say some magical words.

It's shitty, I agree. But it is necessary.

French Revolution: Amerikkkan imperialist plot? I bet people who are less than convinced by the democratic rhetoric of anti-Gaddafi forces think so. They're just crazy like that man.

I have no idea what the hell you mean by this. On the one hand, you seem to say that revolutionaries who are dying in Iran and Syria are not agents of the west, but those in Libya are. Am I missing your point? (please clarify I hate misunderstanding people quite honestly)

[#FF0000]

Like I said in my initial post, whether or not there is disagreement in the wests intervention in libya is not the point I am making. Obviously the western bankers are going to try and exploit these countries after the revolutions, just like Iran/Syria would be potentially opened up for western imperialism should those regimes fall.

What you have posted is

1. Libyans in the east created a central bank to handle finances.

2. The west wants to make money off of Libya

3. The west likes exploiting people.

What you have posted highlights the failures of the left here, of our pitifully pathetic movements.

Meanwhile, there can be no doubt that the protests which launched this attempt at revolution was fueled by the detrimental policies of neoliberalism couples with the abusive regime that has been in power for 42 years.

Can you name any other rebel movement that has ever started a central bank in its first three fucking weeks of existence? You don't think there is something going on here?

And of course, if there was no western intervention, I'd have no problem with this, but the fact is that western intervention of this kind changes the game. The west doesn't help people for no reason. Full stop. Especially not by sending them weapons.

Saying you support the rebels but not the western intervention that they're getting all of their support from is like saying "oh man I love this glass of water, but I hate the fact that it's mostly aresenic".

Ah, yes, here it is. Our power structures are fucked up, and because they want to exploit the Libyans, their revolution is not legitimate.

Uh, yeah. That's about right. This isn't a revolution to democratize. It's a revolution to give the west access to Libya's Africa's banks and gold reserves. You'd be more accurate if you called it a mugging.

Wake up, bro. The Soviet Union is long gone, if you want help (which is clearly needed here) to overthrow a tyrannical dictator with a history of massacring people, who made peacful revolution impossible by killing hundreds of protestors across the country with his mercenaries, you better be ready to say some magical words.

Guess those words are "Go World Bank, Go!".

How about this. Instead of asking us why we don't support the Libyan rebels, you ask NATO why they do, while they were literally shitting themselves over Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and so on.

[Sir Comradical]

Yes, some of us here do indeed oppose "revolutions", especially when they're sponsored by NATO, the CIA and Al-Qaeda!

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

How about this. Instead of asking us why we don't support the Libyan rebels, you ask NATO why they do, while they were literally shitting themselves over Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and so on.

Syria? Really?

The intervention came only when the city of Benghazi was on the verge of falling to the mercenaries. And along with that, there was going to be no intervention before Mr Sarkozy up and did it (with mass support from the mainstream French political class). Had it been up to Mr Gates and the DoD there wouldn't have been an intervention at all, this is not a war the US wanted to be involved in and one in which obviously the US has done everything it could to not be in the lead.

It's my personal belief that Sarko, forcing natos hand, did so after being lambasted by his own people by appearing to close and supportive of the Ben Ali and Mubarak regimes. Hence why the leading mainstream leftist daily proclaimed after France launched it's attacks that she had 'lived up to the ideals of the republic.'

And of course, if there was no western intervention, I'd have no problem with this, but the fact is that western intervention of this kind changes the game. The west doesn't help people for no reason. Full stop. Especially not by sending them weapons.

We haven't sent the rebels weapons, fearful that it could fall into islamist hands.

Uh, yeah. That's about right. This isn't a revolution to democratize. It's a revolution to give the west access to [strike]Libya's[/strike] Africa's bank and gold reserves. You'd be more accurate if you called it a mugging.

Better a mugging than a massacre.

Abu Salim prison is a top security prison in Tripoli, Libya which is often described as "notorious" by human rights activists and other observers.[1][2][3] Amnesty International has called for an independent inquiry into deaths that occurred there in 1996,[4] an incident which Amnesty International and other news media refer to as the Abu Salim prison massacre.[5] Human Rights Watch believes that 1,270 prisoners were killed,[6][7] and calls it a "site of egregious human rights violations."[7] Western governments largely ignored this and no international inquiry was launched, due to "oil interests".[8] During the February 17 uprising, in April 2011, inmates of the prison escaped and engaged Qaddafi forces in armed combat at Bab al-Azizia

How the fuck can these people turn back now, they know they are going to die if they do so. I'd promise NATO a helluva lot as well in order to stop my hometown from being relentlessly shelled and destroyed.

What is the option here, can Misratans surrender now that they've been shelled indiscriminately? Holy fuck of course you'd support NATO intervening, you'd support the Ku Klux Klan intervening if that were the case.

The leadership of the rebels is mostly former regime officials and no doubt many want to profit from this. But shit I cannot believe the stance here that these men and women who are actually fighting and dying are reactionaries.

Dusgusts me a bit I have to admit.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This is the revolution. How the fuck can someone claim to be a revolutionary and not support the revolution?

Is what's happening in Libya now beneficial to the communist project? I think the answer is "no".

Libya is connected with the other incidents of unrest in the mid-east, this is true. What's different about the situation in Libya is that it's turned from (in it's earliest stage) an armed insurrection by Libyans, some of whom undoubtedly had legitimate grievances against the leadership of a country plagued by some of the same problems in other arab states (namely crushing unemployment amoung the youth) to a military conflict between two opposing factions of the bourgeoisie. This is important, because in some of the other conflicts this was not/is not the case: in Egypt you had significant pressure from the working class, in Tunisia the revolt was started and propelled by a massive revolt from mainly unemployed youth, in Algeria there's been riots and resistance springing from the working class and residents of slums going back years, etc. These are conflicts waged on the social terrain. That's what class struggle is.

[Dr Mindbender]

Should be restricted .

+ YouTube Video

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Yes, some of us here do indeed oppose "revolutions", especially when they're sponsored by NATO, the CIA and Al-Qaeda!

Ah yes the CIA-al Qaeda partnership. Does the CIA provide the hallucinogenic drugs Qaddafi claims the opposition is high on?

[#FF0000]

Better a mugging than a massacre.

What a short-sighted and naive viewpoint.

We haven't sent the rebels weapons, fearful that it could fall into islamist hands.

Nah but we've been dropping rather expensive bombs. NATO doesn't make that kind of commitment lightly.

How the fuck can these people turn back now, they know they are going to die if they do so.

But shit I cannot believe the stance here that these men and women who are actually fighting and dying are reactionaries.

Hey, I'm not saying they're wrong for personally wanting to get rid of Gaddafi. Unfortunately, whatever their personal reasons are, the fact of the matter is that they're now fighting and dying for the interests of the World Bank.

I mean, shit. If you want to get disgusted by anyone, don't get disgusted because we're calling a spade a spade. Get disgusted with the West for co-opting this and using the deaths of working people so they can plunder some gold.

[Dr Mindbender]

I dont support Gaddafi for the sake of supporting Gaddafi but when it comes to Gaddafi vs the Royalist (US pawns) I stand on his side.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Is what's happening in Libya now beneficial to the communist project? I think the answer is "no".

Libya is connected with the other incidents of unrest in the mid-east, this is true. What's different about the situation in Libya is that it's turned from (in it's earliest stage) an armed insurrection by Libyans, some of whom undoubtedly had legitimate grievances against the leadership of a country plagued by some of the same problems in other arab states (namely crushing unemployment amoung the youth) to a military conflict between two opposing factions of the bourgeoisie. This is important, because in some of the other conflicts this was not/is not the case: in Egypt you had significant pressure from the working class, in Tunisia the revolt was started and propelled by a massive revolt from mainly unemployed youth, in Algeria there's been riots and resistance springing from the working class and residents of slums going back years, etc. These are conflicts waged on the social terrain. That's what class struggle is.

Those are very cute expressions from here, but in real terms you have a faction that knows it will be brutally crushed if it gives in at this point. By that faction we can say the vast majority of people living in eastern libya as well as those remaining defiant (and being shelled daily for it) in Misrata.

I appreciate that you acknowledge that this was a popular uprising, and avoid the selective memory of the history of this revolution. However to say that now we simply have two equal military factions fighting each other is ridiculous. On the one side intel and word or mouth points to trained professional soldiers, many mercenaries. On the other reports indicate an army made up of very few soldiers, even considering the defections. College students, mechanics, the unemployed, construction workers, ie citizen soldiers rushed to the front to stop the brutal onslaught. The man who blew himself up, for example, in the Benghazi katiba, allowing it to be taken and the city to be grabbed by the rebels was a schoolteacher with no history of extremism for example.

Like I said earlier, these young men and women are taking bullets in their chest to be free, showing the west what courage looks like. Because we may believe that our western, capitalist institutions will fuck over Libya should not be an excuse to defame these revolutionaries.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

What a short-sighted and naive viewpoint.

Only if you're not the one who is going to be massacred.

I mean, shit. If you want to get disgusted by anyone, don't get disgusted because we're calling a spade a spade. Get disgusted with the West for co-opting this and using the deaths of working people so they can plunder some gold.

Agreed. Completely.

I wish that I could say our military intervention was done for the good of Libyans. However, I still firmly support the action though of course, the failure of ourselves to have the revolutionary zeal these martyrs have, may result in them being exploited.

Like I said before, the failure of our pathetic selves compared to these brave men and women is disgusting, I could not agree with you more on this.

I dont support Gaddafi for the sake of supporting Gaddafi but when it comes to Gaddafi vs the Royalist (US pawns) I stand on his side.

...

You're serioulsy comparing todays revolutionaries to the Libyan monarchy that has been dead and buried for so long the vast majority have no idea what it was or desire to impose it again?

Yes, Qaddafi did a lot for OPEC nations. Is that your point?

[#FF0000]

Like I said earlier, these young men and women are taking bullets in their chest to be free, showing the west what courage looks like. Because we may believe that our western, capitalist institutions will fuck over Libya should not be an excuse to defame these revolutionaries.

I'm sorry. Whether they realize it or acknowledge it or not, they are fighting and dying for the World Bank. It's a shame, but the fact that they're getting shot and being brave doesn't change the fact that what's going on in Libya and in the Ivory Coast is not at all in the interests of the working people there. They might think it, but they're not the good guys anymore and no one's going to be better off if they win.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

How the fuck can someone make a statement like that? Aren't we mature enough to get past the democracy equals fascism if its still capitalism bullshit?

Let's apply your thesis to the previous revolution in Egypt.

1. Egypt is now being run by the military, with no semblence of democracy at this moment whatsoever.

2. Egypt is still very much a capitalist country, has not canceled its debt or redistributed property or really done anything truly revolutionary from a leftist perspective.

3. The egyptian military, who are running things, have very deep ties to the US military and has not cut these in anyway truly meaningful whatsoever.

4. People are actually suffereing more because of the unrest than they were before.

Poor egyptians, if only they could know how futile their efforts would be.

If the bs prism one looks through can be applied to libya, than certainly it can be applied to egypt as well. The difference I see in the view in this forum is that because Mubarak was humiliatingly a vassal of the west, anything against him was legit, yet Qaddafi, who is humiliating on his own, isnt given the same treatment whatsoever.