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To the libertarians: Is fascism tolerable under threat of Communism?
The position seems to be quite prevalent with the political, academic and business leaders of yesteryear, as it is even today.
http://sanseverything.wordpress.com/...it-of-fascism/
The reason why I ask is after reading about William Randolph Hearst and comments by other leading industrialists, along with the above quoted Von Mises, that there was this perception that fascism (no matter how bad) was preferable to Communism/socialism.
Quote: "fascism will only come into existence in the United States when such movement becomes really necessary for the prevention of Communism".
- Hearst, quoted in Imperial San Fransisco by Gray A. Brechin pg. 235
Even reading Von Mises chapter on Fascism in his book Liberalism, you get this impression that most of the leading figures he associated with shared his view that fascism, while not despicable in their eyes, saved Europe from descending into Bolshevism.
This view seems largely prevalent today too and was the mantra of the Cold War, regardless if many of the nations subdued and given right wing juntas were not communist but nationalist, social democratic, socialist or liberal developmentalist.
I am not trying to pin fascism on right libertarians, but I am trying to figure out just what they think of fascism and would they opt for it over Communism/socialism if the red specter was hovering over their government?
Fascism is just an extreme form of bourgeois rule, while communism/socialism refers to an altogether separate class taking over. Which one will a bourgeois element prefer? Fascism will be more and more officially promoted all over the world as the ongoing revolutions progress and the international proletariat radicalizes.
Whatever saves western civilization from the reds.
Damn commies ruining my profit margins. Obviously it must be done to preserve the rule of the current class at all costs.
Liberté, égalité, fraternité
Fascism is the extremist system of bourgeois rule through a police state, a merger of state and private corporate interests, an almighty individual leader (usually expressed in the constitutions of past fascist states, like Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy), and in some cases offical state-sponsored racism or racial segregation. If conditions are not favorable for the bourgeoisie under capitalist democracy, through strikes or unionization, a more authoritarian form of pro-business government may emerge as the contradictions between labor and capital become more widespread and identifiable. It's a natural response to growing discontent among a nation's laboring population.
What's scary is that some portions of the western population may support measures like this, even if they are discontent with the current government. Consider the Tea party in the US for example, or the legal participation of Lithuanian Nazis in their upcoming elections.
"In your system, gentlemen fascists, to whom do the means of production belong? To individual capitalists and to groups of capitalists and, therefore, you cannot have genuine planning, except for bits, as the economy is divided among groups of owners." - J.V. Stalin
"[The children's] life will be better than ours; much of what was our life, they will not experience. Their lives will be less cruel. [...] Our generation has succeeded in doing a job of astounding historical importance. The cruelty of our life, forced upon us by conditions, will be understood and justified. It will all be understood, all of it!" -V. Lenin
In my opinion Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia were equally bad. I don't see many differences between both countries. Both have a large, oppressing government, a cruel dictatorship, massmurder, etc.
I guess it depends from country to country, what kind of dictator you have. It'll be somewhat better if you have mild benevolent dictator.
I stopped reading after this rubbish "In my opinion Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia were equally bad".
"Machinery in itself is a victory of man over the forces of nature, but in the hands of capital it makes man the slave of those forces" - Uncle Karl
Strange that you read anything at all. The thread topic was: "To the libertarians: Is fascism tolerable under threat of Communism?". Appearantly, you only want to read things you can agree with. So why are you reading this thread if you don't want to know what a libertarian thinks about that issue. Did you think you would agree with a libertarian?
To be honest, I'm not very interested in the things you didn't read. Calling something rubbish isn't interesting either. Could you please not reply to my posts I you have nothing to say?
So you're a libertarian?
In some form yes.
This is wrong. I'm no fan of the USSR but the USSR and Germany were very different. The state in Germany, first of all, was actually in control. Meanwhile in the USSR, the government was in a far more chaotic state. The central gov't really had a hard time keeping certain things under control (e.g. NKVD). Second, mass murder and a lot of people dying are very different things. The USSR didn't have death camps like Germany did.
tl;dr the state in Nazi Germany was a p. well oiled machine while the Soviet gov't was in some weird death spiral for a long time.
Take a look at Sheila Fitzpatrick's "The Russian Revolution". It's way better than my post in explaining why your post is kiiinda silly.
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
I can't believe im reading such things.
If it weren't the 'Soviet state' the entire world might be covered with Swastikas..They did make mistakes,but you can't compare a genocidal mechanism composed of the most evil men in history,to the country that's citizens trough hard work and horrific sacrifices saved the world from the Nazi threat,and you simply cant negate the fact that the Soviet leaders had a little to do with that.
The Soviet Union and therefore its leader and leading top fought for freedom and peace,to vanquish the greatest threat to mankind ever - Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party.
Comparing the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany is something for me,Intolerable.
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
As I said, it depends on the specifics of the country. I never meant to say that both countries were identical. Of course you are gonna find a lot of differences between both countries. However, not many of those differences weigh heavy to prefer one over the other. They are similar enough to find both equally bad.
Oh, gotcha.
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
So wait, you're comparing:
Militarist white-supremacist capitalists seeking to subjugate the peoples of the Balkans and Eastern Europe to the status of slave nations while murdering on an industrial scale masses of communists, trade-unionists, jews, gypsies and homosexuals.
...with the Soviet Union under Stalin? If you think that then that's cool.
Please tell me why you think they were "equally bad". Humour me.
"Machinery in itself is a victory of man over the forces of nature, but in the hands of capital it makes man the slave of those forces" - Uncle Karl
No he's not saying that'.
He's saying that he wouldn't like either the USSR or Nazi Germany.
Not that they are the same.
I mean I wouldn't like to live in the deepest reaches of Kashmir. I also would not like to live in Somalia. Or Saudi Arabia. They're all different, but, yeah
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
He/she said they were "equally bad". Lolwut.
"Machinery in itself is a victory of man over the forces of nature, but in the hands of capital it makes man the slave of those forces" - Uncle Karl
Yeah that doesn't mean the same, though.
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
No such thing. Any hope for a "benevolent dictator" is naive. A Government that draws its power from something other than the people is hardly beholden to their interests and certainly cannot reflect what they want.
