Book Animal Farm

[tradeunionsupporter]

I know I already posted a thread about the Book Animal Farm by George Orwell but Capitalists say Socialism won't work because the Leaders of the Socialist Government would keep all the money for themselves what do you say to this claim is it flawed ?

Animal Farm

by George Orwell

http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/reviews/...imal-farm.html

[RGacky3]

Why do YOU think this claim is flawed?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Why do you think it is not flawed ?

[RGacky3]

I think it IS flawed, but for once I'd like to hear you make an argument.

[hatzel]

for once I'd like to hear you make an argument.

You're clutching at straws there, Gacky...

[Revolution starts with U]

The leaders WILL do just that, if there are leaders. Or at least try to. The argument is not wrong.
Where it is mistaken is in believing socialism is in promotion of leaders, instead of in opposition to it.

[tradeunionsupporter]

Are people here saying that under Socialism the Leaders can or will become corrupt like the Book Animal Farm by George Orwell says and you might have State Capitalism like Leon Trotsky said ?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trot...vbet/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

[Revolution starts with U]

Idk about anyone else. But I am saying, it could happen. It all depends on the power structure put in place. If people place absolute, or nearly absolute power in their leaders, said leaders WILL use it to their exclusive advantage. If it decentralizes power, this can't happen.

[ZrianKobani]

The leaders WILL do just that, if there are leaders. Or at least try to. The argument is not wrong.
Where it is mistaken is in believing socialism is in promotion of leaders, instead of in opposition to it.

I second this; take a look at DPRK, China, USSR, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia.

The only exception I can think of is Zapatista territory in Chiapas, Mexico.

[Trigonometry]

Sorry but George Orwell always seemed like the flag bearer of idiots who don't know what communism means to me, I could be wrong but that was the impression I had gotten.

[ColonelCossack]

george orwell, in animal farm, doesn't show that communism is always doomed to failure because the revolution become corrupted. For instance, what would have happened if snowball had not been driven out? Or if napoleon had never been born in the first place? If that was the case , it would have been possible that the animal revolution would have survived. Similarly, Orwell was a trotskyist- what, for instance, would have happened if Trotsky had won out over Stalin?

P.S. for the record, I'm neither a trotskyist or a stalinist... I'm just a leninist.

P.P.S. George Orwell himself was a communist- he fought on the side of the communist international brigades in the spanish civil war. Read his autobiography of the event, Homage to Catalonia. it's quite a good book. The reason he wrote books like animal farm and 1984 was because he was very strongly anti-stalinist.

P.P.P.S. Tis is not a reply about communist theory- its just an extremely concise analysis of the book in that context. :P

[Valdemar]

George Orwell was not anti-communist, in fact he was Communist! Capitalists used him as tool (poor fool), Western-Capitalist Mass media portrayed him as he is anti-communist, and represented his book as critique of communism, (look at my signature) for their own needs. Such guys were always flag bearers for attack against communism, fools. In fact book is critique of authoritarian communism and Stalin, which can be seen in his first preface. I'm not mistaken, George Orwell wrote two Prefaces to Animal Farm, but books were-are printed without first one preface which is most important, In first preface he explains troubles finding publisher, he says that in Soviet Union freedom of speech is forbidden but on west they use different means-tactics to achieve similar yet different goal, only more sub-tile.
And rich capitalist published books and printed books without that preface, and voila, he was anti-communist and book is making fun of communism...sneaky, and in later years when Soviet Union became Evil (because before were Ally's and that Orwell says) it was great tool to Attack Soviet Union and Communism World Wide!
Poor George, if he only knew what he have done...Serving the Capitalist Interests.
Like I said, such fools were always flag bearers and first line of attack against communism, George was not first and certainly not last of them.

[tradeunionsupporter]

I enjoy George Orwell's books.

[ApparentlyASocialist]

1984 and Animal Farm are two of my favourite books. Funny because at the moment I'm wearing a 'Big Brother is Watching You' shirt....

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.

[runequester]

Of course, Orwell had never set foot in the USSR, before or after he wrote his books.

[piet11111]

The book was a warning about the threat of stalinism and meant to be read by true socialists.

[Luc]

Not to mention that I think the majority of Socialist (Communist and Anarchist) ideaologies oppose having leaders.

So this book is more about the statists, definitely not Socialism as a whole.

[Bud Struggle]

The problem with Animal Farm is that while Orwell MAY have been Communist and he MAY have been portraying various things he didn't like about certain authoritarian societies what he did inadvertently or not was NAIL the faults Soviet Socialism to the wall. And since for most people political realities triumph theories--Orwell lambasted Communism because Soviet Union was Communism to 95% of Europe and America.

Whatever his intentions--Orwell wrote a scathing critique of Communism--at least as it existed in this world up to now. As I always said: the greatest problem Communists of today has isn't Capitalism, it's the Communists that came before.

[DinodudeEpic]

I decided to read Animal Farm, and it was a great book. (The capitalist farmers were harshly portrayed too.)

My main problem with the book is that it had nothing to say on the provisional government. (Which was about to have elections that would have had socialist parties winning by a majority.) It also had nothing to say about the green, black, and blue armies, and said nothing of Kronstadt.

Besides that, it is a must read.