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A commenter on one of my favorite blogs wrote this really insightful post that I wanted to reproduce here (this is not from the main blogger):
http://partialobjects.com/2011/04/377/#comments
I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this. I reformatted the post for readability and corrected some spelling errors when I found them.
Last edited by TC; 21st April 2011 at 02:31.
If the the two are at the age of consent, and both accept it, I think it's fine. But I agree that we need to shift the way we actually look at it.
MARX-ENGELS-LENIN-STALIN
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not want our enemies to have guns, so why should we let them have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin
"Here, in the Soviet Union, I am not a Negro but a human being for the first time in my life ... I walk in full human dignity." - Paul RobesonSOLIDARITY
FREEDOM
EQUALITY
Somewhat surprising (if you didn't know about it before) update for those into Women's Lib and how the Porn industry affects it.
Fem-Porn link.
"We are free, truly free, when we don't need to rent our arms to anybody in order to be able to lift a piece of bread to our mouths."
- Ricardo Flores Magón
"I am resolved to struggle against everything and everybody."
- Emiliano Zapata
This commenter is making some important points. First, in terms of the "consumer" of porn, research has shown that porn is as addictive as cocaine, particularly when one masturbates to it and goes to climax (the brain will make the association between porn and climax and every time it is done, this association strengthens because it's getting reinforced). Porn addiction is real. Second, as the commenter noted, a lot of people who view porn are aware of some of the horrible problems porn workers might deal with and go through, but still go through with watching it and propping it up - but often, belief follows behavior - not the other way around (people will rationalize their viewing of porn, even if they know it might not be right. Pretty much we can apply cognitive dissonance theory here). On this particular aspect of the topic, I don't think the commenter is right. It isn't the paying for porn that allows viewers to push their qualms aside. After all, it's the internet, there's almost no reason to actually pay for porn because so much porn is free.
I agree that it degrades the ability to empathize. More research should be done into the feelings of porn workers, but again, their beliefs may follow their behavior as they attempt to rationalize their work in the industry.
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why does it magically become okay and not-exploitive on a certain birthday? what possible psychosocial dynamic works that way?
Yes, the industry's effect on workers absolutely deserves more attention. However, the assertion that porn has always existed fails after even a moment's reflection and the assertion that it will always exists rests on speculation.
"Unless revolution uproots the basic social organisation, the biological family - the vinculum through which the psychology of power can always be smuggled - the tapeworm of exploitation will never be annihilated."
- Shulamith Firestone, The Dialectic of Sex
Most feminists don't push that sort of research because most feminists either aren't socialists or are anti-socialists. Addressing the working (and living) conditions of models/actors in porn would imply addressing the working (and living) conditions of other super-exploited women, and men, and eventually, everyone else. What doing so would find is that, although a lot of women in porn do have histories of physical and sexual abuse and are forced into shitty, oppressive, dehumanizing and dangerous jobs - but that the same is true of a whole lot of women in the rest of society, for reasons having little to do with the existence or non-existence of pornography. And it would cause a whole lot of problems for academic feminists and the universities who fund them.
The cultural forces that would prevent this sort of research because of sexist men's insecurities or value judgments influence feminist research only to a limited extent. On these grounds there is considerable academic freedom in many universities. The political and class forces which prevent honest social-materialist, pro-working class, or Marxist study are quite powerful and active, and do play a considerable role in circumscribing precisely this sort of research.
I think the pornography we have clearly reflects the sick society we live in, but by the same token I think the feminists obsessed with pornography being the sickness are severely mistaken at best.
It depends what you mean by porn. A lot of theorists basically define porn as necessarily misogynistic, and so representations of sexuality which aren't misogynistic aren't porn, and so societies that weren't really misogynistic don't have porn. But I think this definition is really problematic, because it raises all sorts of issues about blurry lines (and stupid debates) about lines between "porn", "erotica", high or low art which happens to include gratuitous or non-gratuitous sexual content. It makes a lot more sense to simply acknowledge that cultural production in general - whether or not it earns label as "art" - reflects the society in which it exists. But every society has sex in it, and so virtually every society represents sexuality somehow. Calling it or not calling it porn is, as far as I can tell, unproductive semantics.
Unless the entire world enacts laws like Malta and Saudi Arabia (and even then it mearly would drive it under-ground) porn will aways exist and the murals they have found in villas at Pompeii show that porn existed even 2000 years ago and probablly since even futher back all the way to whem humans first begin to communicate though drawings.
I'm not sure I understand the writer's proposition, that, if I have it right, the common assumption that pornographic performers are emotionally damaged suggests that pornography degrades our ability to feel empathy for women. Why is it assumed that this is a product of exposure to pornography, and not something that arrive at it with? It's not as if men need encouragement from their porn not to give a damn about women.
What a bizarre claim. Psychological dependence isn't an absolute property of the object of addiction, but depends to a great extent on the psychological state of the potential addict, especially when, as porn, there is an extremely limited chemical component (orgasm hardly being an exceptional product of pornography).
Porn addiction is certainly real, but so is internet addiction or junk food or, hell, any amount of weird things. The "porn is addictive" line is a one rooted in a fear of sexuality itself rather than a progressive concern for sexual issues.
In a semantic sense, or a conceptual one? "Always existed" and "always will exist" are technically inaccurate, but is it as contentious to suggest that humans are naturally likely to produce sexually explicit imagery? They've certainly seem to do so the moment they get a chance.
Last edited by Tim Finnegan; 21st April 2011 at 03:13. Reason: re-wording
Who even claims that? A good number of porn directors (e.g. Jake Malone, Joey Silvera, pretty much everyone who works for JM Productions, Ashley Blue, Max Hardcore before he got sent away for obscenity when he should have been sent away for rape) even make a show of how their "actresses" are emotionally wasted husks. This is not even assumed to be a big revelation. Every serious porn watcher already knows this.
The number in both cases approximates to 100%.
EDIT: This piece is by Chico Wang, a director for the Anabolic/Diabolic studio. He talks about why women who work in porn (whom he calls "whores" repeatedly, ad literal nauseum) get into the business:
http://peachyforum.com/t/why-girls-do-porn-145872.aspx
Last edited by Gorilla; 21st April 2011 at 03:18.
hmmm....
users?!
A good point
Not really researching how it affects the workers.
First stating research to how it affects and then summing up a whole range of things happening before they start their work...before work could actually affect them.
But interesting propositions for case study. I believe there has been some preliminary work done.
Interesting proposition for a case study.
And that is where the article turns to shit.
1) Not only women work in porn
2) Not all porn is men-women...but men-men & women-women
3) Not all porn is commercial and actually the largest part of porn today is porn produced by the ones starring in it and posted it online.
This article ignores a huge group of people who work in porn: male actors....not specifically the ones in hetro porn...but those in gay porn. It also ignores the lesbian porn scene. It narrowly focusses on a specific group and then presupposes...or makes it appear as such...that those are the only exploited group.
Conjecture, preaching and over generalising.
Moralising.
Well...thats an interesting question. Do you ask that of every person you encounter in a professional situation? If not...that probably for the same reason as generally speaking we do here.
That however is an interesting question. Here are some interesting reactions to that question...see if you can spot the men :-)
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question...5144032AA0i6LC
I think it is because "we" is not a close knit group but a selection of induviduals...who normally do not do this research.
Institutions not doing the research is because generally the institutions do not care and only research health and mental effects on workers if they think it raises their profit margins....or because of therats made by unions or workers councils.
I do not know if this is actually the case. But I think its a good starting point to assume.
I think in fact the majority of people do not pay for porn....its freely acceseable on the internet. I do not think people who watch free porn care much either on a day to day basis.
Hmmm....you do realise that almost as much women watch porn as men. At least in Holland? Right?
Well...since there is no study done on the subject...this is conjecture and since the whole focus by this part of the article seems to be a huge guilt trip against users (?!)...I think its fair to say htat you are now trying to play the emotions instead of the facts.
Again...we? There is no "we" you are agitating against. THere is a select group of people who do research on topics...for various resaons. The vast majority of porn users (?!) seriously do not care for either of the research and will probably read the other kind of research yhou are propposing with as much genuine interest as the one here.
There is however a THEY. Perhaps that is a more correct term.
Well..you believe that because if you would have read the research on how porn affects people you would have known the answer. That watching porn regresses the stimulus much like addiction does. It then needs more and more explicit immage to uphold the same level of excitement. It also deadens the connection with the real world. Making the fantasy more preferable to real life sex or sexual relations with a real flesh and blood partner. And it alienates people from physical and emotional contact.
Thats why...actually.
Again...gay sex, boys, lesbian sex.
Really,...get of your hetrosexual exploitation fetish...geez. (mockingly meant)
Also...people who scream peadophilia when it concerns somebody over the age of 13 do not know what peadophelia is.
>13 is child abuse or abuse of a minor.
It seesm to me you are now debating the age of consent laws. I am willing to play...but so far you have been continuously supposing abuse, force and suffering for reasons to go into porn.
That counters you own arguments in the first paragraphs. But it also negates the fact that you are now making assumptions while you earlier argued there is no research.
Porsntart autobiographies are mostly online....you can do the litterature research yourself.
Well...I think most peopel just believe its against the law. And therefore a violation of the law and therefore unlawful and we mostly equate evil with unlawful. This may not be all encompassing...but I tink its a pretty good description.
We are all exploited. why exactly do you say pornstarts are more exploited. And more interestingly...why do you limit that exploitation to hetrosexual women?
Again...."we" as a society do not care much about the emotional affects on porn users.
But to get back to your argument here...there is no research done. So saying that all pornstars are happy is as much valid as what you are doing.
Well...I hardly think we see c*** in gay porn. But ok...I'll just read over that for the sake of this paragraph and forget you are horribly biased. Becaus the rest of this paragraph is actually pretty sound.
****
There I reviewed and gave my opinion on the article.
I think the research suggestions are sound.
I think the question is sound.
I also think its a sound question to ask why they do not research this.
And I think the conclusion...and with that I mean the last paragraph is sound.
IF
...you read over the authors horrible bias and focus purely on hetrosexual women and portraying them as the only exploited group in porn making it appear that there is no other kind of porn.
I also think the author is guilty of doing what she/he initially rejected and I think pretty much of the main body of the text is crappy arguments, presupposition and conjecture...and horrible analysis....mostly caused by a complete misunderstanding of the entirety of pornographic material (NOT limited to commercial porn for one).
A lot of modern "porn workers" are actually (A) friends getting it on and filming it (B) married people getting it on and filming it, and (C) so-called "workers" who are well-paid to perform. The only people getting uptight about this are the tightly-wound-up religion freaks.
money is to politics as fertilizer is to garden weeds.
What are you actually arguing here? We have laws. These laws are the age of consent. Are you arguing to lower them?
Because at the age of consent we agree that the person can pretty much do anything sexual he/she wants...though I do believe in the US the age of consent for starring in porn movies and also internationally set at 18.
In some countries and US states the age of consent also stipulates that you can have sex at 16 but can not have anal sex at 18. Laws do not necessarilly make sense.
But there is a misconception. It is not about exploitation why people are outraged but because sex with somebody under the age of consent is considered abuse of a minor.
I assume the distinction is that, as the author suggests, there is a widespread belief that pornography is necessarily a degrading experience and that pornographic performers are necessarily emotionally damaged, so a lot of viewers enter into the experience "knowing", which is to say believing themselves to know, something significant about the person they are watching. The same isn't really true of, say, a barista at a coffee shop. It's not so much the form of employment that sets it apart as the beliefs about that sort of employment.
Could you elaborate on this point?
The article is pretty explicitly dealing with female performers and perceptions of female performers. This is a red herring.
(Arguably, it could be said that the comment in question was cis-normative- not all women have vaginas- but given that it's primarily discussing mainstream pornography, while trans porn is relegated to an often extremely distasteful fetish sub-genre, it could be fair comment. And you are aware, aren't you, that you get lady-free porn that isn't "gay", i.e. male solo porn, intended for both male and female audiences? Because women can like cocks too? But you didn't seem to think that of either of those, did you? Because you're not not actually a very good at playing the more enlightened-than-thou commentator, are you?)
That's your inference, not her implication. Neither the gender-gender arrangement of porn is discussed nor the sexual orientation of the performers in question. Another red herring.
Last edited by Tim Finnegan; 21st April 2011 at 03:36. Reason: wording
There are preliminary studies, sort of, but it's awfully objectifying and seems to basically want to make a go at "diseased sexuality leads to porn" type moralism.
I would also second this
The argument by straight bourgeois feminists is really a pain in the ass and it became quite obvious that it was all about the straight bourgeois moralism when Canada followed that lead.
I've seen all sorts of porn over the years. In the 70s and 80s, yes the majority of it was obviously done by professionals. But with the advent of the internet, you can find loads of video depicting girl-girl, interracial, gay, what-have-you sex films in which it is obvious that people are not paid actors. I can't prove it, but it is intuition, when one views amateur porn, which has been growing in popularity, the folks are not "acting," they seem to be for real (friends or married, that is)
Does this answer your question?
money is to politics as fertilizer is to garden weeds.
Under what circumstances? I seriously doubt the hunter-gatherers cultures that constitute the majority of our history as a species produced anything like what we today call pornography. Nor is the term necessarily synonymous with sexually explicit imagery.
"Unless revolution uproots the basic social organisation, the biological family - the vinculum through which the psychology of power can always be smuggled - the tapeworm of exploitation will never be annihilated."
- Shulamith Firestone, The Dialectic of Sex
I understood that, I meant your comment (which I bolded) about "so-called workers" who are "well paid to perform". I'm not really sure what the distinction between a "so-called worker" and a plain old worker is.
That said, it is worth noting that the rise of amateur or semi-amateur (i.e. independent, in-your-spare-time) pornography does suggest complications which not many theorists have addressed yet.
Well, firstly, yes, hunter-gatherers probably did not- although we hardly possess a comprehensive gallery of cave-art to verify it- but that's why I specified "as soon as they were able to".
Secondly, I'm not entirely convinced of the wisdom of compartmentalising "pornography", as our society tends to do, when discussing wider human history. "Pornography" in that form seems to me a product of a culture with strong taboos on sexual expression, while a culture with a more open relationship to sexuality would not necessarily offer the firm boundaries suggested by contemporary usage of the term, so it's hard to make direct comparisons. However, what we can say is image with evidently erotic intent- not necessarily intended to get people off, but certainly intended to provoke an emotional reaction- dates back into antiquity. As TMMAN said, the Pompeii brothel-murals weren't just there as technical manuals.
That's bullshit. I think $700-800 is about the going rate for a female performer in a boy-girl scene. Seven or eight hundred to spend the better part of a day getting fucked repeatedly in your anus, mouth and vagina by the biggest dick they could find without any protection often while being slapped, choked and called a whore (customers demand it these days) and then kneel to take a semen shot on your face and smile for the camera like you love it so much - on top of whatever degrading shit the director may ask you to do in a "private shoot" beforehand which is pretty standard practice - that is not "well-paid" by any stretch of the imagination.
Sorry, I guess I fall victim to the idea that acting in a porn movie isn't exactly "work." LOL
Quite true.
money is to politics as fertilizer is to garden weeds.