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The people are demanding the further democratization of their industries...a workplace organized, operated, and democratically coordianted by the workers themselves. They are asking for the furthering of an increasingly revolutionary socialism; why the need for police and national guard? Are the people becoming more revolutionized than the government might like? It just strikes me as odd that the state felt it necessary that a police/guard presence be present at a demonstration demanding socialism...
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6106
"Socialist ideas become significant only to the extent that they become rooted in the working class."
"If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. . .Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."
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Kinda shows Hugo's true colors, doesn't it? Venezuelans need to kick him down and bring the progress forward themselves.
It is not at all odd. Any State is by definition an association of ruling class against the subordinate ones. Chavez does not renounce capitalism, he dismisses neoliberal form of capitalism, while basically promoting neo-Keynesian one.
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I like how some people look at Venezuela and see one man pulling the strings of every single police action.
Yeah, if we were to be entirely sceptical, there'd be at least two burning questions to ask:
1) why the police and the National Guard?
2) why hasn't the legislation in question been passed yet, or at least clearly formulated and brought up as a bill (I'm not sure if Venezuela distinguishes between "bills" and "acts")?
As far as the first question is concerned, if we were naive, we could conclude that public order (massive demos may result in all kinds of shit) was the primary factor behind the decision on behalf of the official authorities.
If we were naive.
The second question is more complex and problematic. Maybe we could push the discussion in this direction.
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“The possibility of securing for every member of society, by means of socialized production, an existence not only fully sufficient materially, and becoming day by day more full, but an existence guaranteeing to all the free development and exercise of their physical and mental faculties – this possibility is now for the first time here, but it is here.” Friedrich Engels
"The proletariat is its struggle; and its struggles have to this day not led it beyond class society, but deeper into it." Friends of the Classless Society
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You'd think that more leftists would be able to see past the "brown + anti-American = dictator" logic peddled by the Western media, wouldn't you?
You would, wouldn't you? But the Western media is too powerful and entrenched in the mindset of even some leftist westerners. Chavez does a lot of good for his people, even if he may not be perfect, and has an almost spotless record. He is anti-American due to the simple reason that not only is it the major playing in Latin America, occupy many countries and supporting fascist dictators, but it also wages wars against any country it feels has slighted it. Anti-Americanism is not villainy, indeed.
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This is good stuff! People are marching in the streets in Venezuela and the first thing you people think to do is rush to Chavez's defense.![]()
Actually, the first thing that happened was people rushing to criticise Chavez. What we did was speculate as to the validity of the particular criticisms, specifically, the idea that Chavez is personally responsible for the deployment of the Caracas Metropolitan Police.
Also, note that "the march was intended to reiterate the national union’s “critical support” for the government of Hugo Chávez and to push for greater consolidation of Chávez’s proposed “21st century socialism” on job sites nationwide." This wasn't intended in opposition to Chavez, but, rather to prod him into further action; is a "defence", as you seem to use the term, actually necessary?
While I tend to be critical of Chavez's politics, the article doesn't say whether or not he ordered/authorized the deployment of security forces. Either way, I find it deeply unsettling that a state/government that claims to adhere to the principles of socialism would find it necessary to place "security" around a march for the furtherment of a socialistic society.
"Socialist ideas become significant only to the extent that they become rooted in the working class."
"If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. . .Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."
SocialistWorker.org
International Socialist Review
Marxists Internet Archive
Then you probably shouldn't conflate the state and the administration. It'll save you a lot of grief.
By pointing out that there was a demonstration?
What does this mean?
So are you actually going to cite proof of your claims that this is the logic of many so-called "leftists"?
By suggesting Chavez had some personal role in the deployment of the Caracas Metropolitan Police, which I'm not entirely sure is a responsibility allotted to the Venezuelan president.
It means that those of us who sympathise with Chavez have no reason to "rush to his defence", because he is not under attack. This is an example of his own popular base prodding him into further action: it is an expression of critical support.
I didn't realise that I was supposed to offer citations for sardonic remarks.
Last edited by Tim Finnegan; 7th April 2011 at 17:47.
I LOL at those who make this march of Venezuelan workers look like it's showing opposition to Chavez and the PSUV.Given that it's furthest from the truth. Fact of the matter is that these are critical supporters of Chavez and the PSUV. They believe what he represents and wants to implement his ideal of "socialism in the 21st century". Those claiming that Chavez is a neo-liberal and doesn't denounce capitalism, these are the idiots who probably spend very little time paying attention to the events of Venezuela, the policies that have passed through and are going to pass through, and then not to mention the large opposition that stand, not just in the streets, but also in the govt. as well. No matter. Idealists will be idealists. It's easy to denounce someone as not being a revolutionary from the computer. Though, if anyone's a revolutionary between those denouncing Chavez from RevLeft and Chavez himself, Chavez clearly takes home the cake.
I don't see anything wrong with this March at all. It is necesary that the working class organizes independently to support and fight for their interests, which they are doing by demanding workers control over industry.
Also the article clearly shows that they are "critical supporters" of Chavez and rather than marching in opposition to him, they are just trying to influence the political process.
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Indeed. I would even go so far as to suggest that this sort of thing is a product of the movement of which Chavez is part: it reflects the increasing re-orientation of Venezuelan politics away from the bourgeoisie and towards the working class, and locates the driving force of this re-orientation within the working class itself. Where else in the world could the people march through the streets asking, in all sincerity, the bourgeois state to do away with itself? That's a sight that has not been seen in the first world for almost a century, and in many parts of it, not at all. Even if it suggests that Chavez is being overly timid, it shows that the movement which produced him- and I think Chavez, along with perhaps Morales, is unique in that he is a product of a popular movement, and not the leader of a populist movement- is doing something very right indeed.
Whether or not you actually believe that Chavez is capable of doing anything approaching this, whether or not you consider these requests simplistic and utopian, and whether or not you consider that movement capable of developing a revolutionary nature or bound to mere reformism, that's not something that can be dismissed.
To Chavez critics, please name someone better than him to replace him in near future. OTHERWISE, STOP PLAYING THE GAME.
Well they seem like pretty serious allegations in the context of "leftists".
Last edited by dernier combat; 9th April 2011 at 13:18. Reason: typo(s)
Generally, communist critics of Chavez don't name any individual that they think will be a better replacement, because they believe that a militant, independent working class itself could do a better job, as it is the real force of social change, as in all capitalist societies. I think any rational communist would agree with this principle. If you think that the mobilisation of the working class independent of Chavez is not a possibility (as this is a predictable response from many Chavistas), then you might as well give up on the prospect of revolution - anywhere.