Results 21 to 40 of 81
But what alot of you dont understand is that all those homophobes and rascists dont want to hear the stuff we say, they dont want to hear us talking about tolerance and peaceful things...but we still can. They can find our views about capitalists hateful, and cruel. So it's either everyone gets the right, or no one....and thats just bullshit.
A true Revolutionary is Motivated by love,
Ernesto Che Guevara
things will be different under communism and that type of speech will not be tolerated. Racists and Fascists dont deserve the right to speech or to organize and they wont get that right under communism. Rascist, Homophobic, Misogynic, and Fascist speech should not be tolerated in any situation. "Tolerance" of rasicsts is unacceptable.
Here is the big question, should there be any limit to free speech?, even if it undermines the current system?
Thats a touchy question, but i say yes and no, there need to be limits to the limits(if any), and basically draw the line, if its an armed insurection, it cant be tolerated, even if it is ONE step b4 an armed rebellion of the accused, it can still be permitted, only when something is harmfull to our way of life, should it be restricted, thats basically how i feel, but radical dissent is more than ok, its even prefered, cause that is what will foster our democracy and our socialism
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche
lets say we are in a communist society and I am a white supremesist I decide to publish a white pride newspaper calling for the deaths of all niggers spics fags and jews and talk about the supiriority of the white race and call women second class citizens. and praise fascism.
you are going to allow that? I am not in an armed revolution against the society
I dont think so
What if it was a counter-revolutionary paper and I was an old boss and I was calling for the return to capitalism?
I certainly dont think that speech would be tolerated in communism
Why not persecute those who try to stir up support for capitalism, or give racist speeches, etc? Firstly these people don't even deserve freedom, considering how they are advocating systems that inevitably result in the death of innocent people, and the exploitation of the majority. Secondly the freedom lost by not allowing people to encourage or advocate the right wing ideologies and traits is much less than that lost if counter-revolution was to occur.
Also remember there is only a need to do this under socialism, not communism. During socialism, capitalism would still be a threat, due to large organised supporters of it, ie capitalist countries. So therefore it is neccessary to have these strict measures, as while they arent the ideal conditions for us to live under, its better than risking counter-revolution back to capitalism. But socialism is not permanent. Its just a transitional stage. Once communism was to be achieved, one of its pre-conditions being world revolution would mean the threat of counter-revolution vastly reduced. There would not be a bourgeiosie, a very important influence on peoples perceptions, and opinions. No longer would capitalist countries be relied on for certain resources, no longer would there be capitalist properganda being produced on a industrial scale, and due to the de-centralised nature of communism, the act of counter-revolution itself would be very hard to pull off. There may still for a short time be individuals, or small groups, but i dont see how they could do any significant damage to a truly communist society.
I support free speach....
In defence of the iron curtain
You must remember that in the socialist countrys that exist, the west destroys the local economy and people will bee in the 'selling off' game for there best intrest, i.e privitization, and not for youraverage citizen (as Marx states), possibly we have not yet seen the communist utopia....
I have to agree with what Elijah Muhammad said, as quoted by Comrade praxis1966. I do not think the suppression of reactionary ideas is necessary so long as we can provide an alternative with sufficient means to reach everyone.
The dangers of repression or censorship:
1. Who gets to decide what will be censored? Who is to stop the censors from acting in personal interests or prejudices?
2. Repression makes repugnant ideas forbidden, but there is a dark temptation to explore that which is forbidden. By attacking rightist ideas, we legitimize them and show a certain intimidation if we are not willing for them to speak out and make fools of themselves. To sqeulch debate, it may appear that we cannot argue with them, reducing the validity of our ideas to some while raising the status of rightist ideas.
As opposed to embracing oppression, I suggest that we put forward articulate propagandists to show that the rightist spectrum moves from foolish to genocidal and that it is in no interest of the working class to support them. With education against fascism and the like, and not legitimizing them by attacking them to preempt their bullshit, these ideas will wither and die on their own.
Lincoln's Underground Network -- LUNk Radio
http://www.lunkradio.org
if you start killing people who feel differntly, you're nothing more than a fascists, taking advatage of your position of authority. you're turning your amry and police into your own little gestapo!
You cant silence everything, you will never silence the people aslong as they are alive. If you start taking away freedom of speech, you've become fascist
A true Revolutionary is Motivated by love,
Ernesto Che Guevara
tell what "freedoms and rights" do fascists and racists deserve? NONE and they wont get that the right to "free speech" in communism, the people will supress these scumbags there will be no need for police and courts to deal with them.
Yes, they should have a right to publish racist shit, i dont have to beleive in it, but id die in a second for thier right to say it!
If u strip speech from the Fascists, then Cappies, then Middle Class, then Anarchism, then Socialism, until all thats left is "THE PARTY" and its beleif, thats where we WILL fail, its guaranteed, we DONT want a landslide into Animal Farm, wed be just as bad as the opressor, and that cannot be tolerated!
But feel free to crtizise their free speech, with ur free speech, speech can go both ways you know. Killing them is an easy way out, argue with them, not kill em, or restrict them
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I havn't really read through the entire thread but I know in the first post he mentioned people see freedom of speech as a negative light. I am not really sure why anyone would believe that because a lot of what is on the board would be repressed by The System if the First Amendment didn't exist. People mentioning racism, homosexuality, political advocacies besides the ones that exist in the US, religion, and especially how people feel about the government and why it sucks. So, I believe there should be no negative light unless you believe you should be silenced by the government. That is how i feel, if you feel differently than no offense intended. It's just my opinion.
"Jails are just concentration camps for the independents"
I will second that. I think if a truly open dialogue is opened, rightists (so long as they are stripped of their demagoguery and their bombast) will fall on their faces for their lack of logic. By revealing the poverty of their philosophy, we will embarrass them into irrelevance and oblivion.
Lincoln's Underground Network -- LUNk Radio
http://www.lunkradio.org
Yes, definatley, they will quickly change their thoughts when they hear 1000 counter arguments, moreover, to win SOCIAL ACCEPTANCE(which cannot be controlled by gov't), most closet Nazis will conform to avoid social, and mental dissapproval. No matter how much Free Speech you give, ppl will hold ideas, and will not take to kindly to Fascsits(even if the gov't allows them to speek up, so it really does not need to be controled by the gov't, things will work themselves out.
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Lets get a few things straingt here. First off, this bourgeois sickness that is called free speach is currently in place, there is nothing we can do about it. Second of all the party will actively surpress and condemn ANY and all acts of racism and fascism with swift elimination of the offending party. You may counter with the fact that "freedom of speech guarantees the right for the people to actively form a revolt" Wrong. Look where it has gotten socialism today.
Free speech allows fascists to infiltrate the youth of society when they at at their most vulnerable and socially akward, just after puberty. This is a time when every person is dealing with SEVERE amygdalic and hormonal changes. They feel "alone", they feel "misunderstood" they feel the need to be surrounded by people that give them comfort, people that hug them with words.
The root of the bourgeois youth brainwashing runs deep, if left to its own devices, one army of fascists will simply be replaced with another. We must stop this trend from re-inventing itself. It is OUR JOB as enlightened socialists, communists and anarchists to mould the new model of man into the direction that will be beneficial to humanity.
Under democratic centralism within a new socialist state, extreme suppression of the bourgeoisie (fascists and racists are included most appropriately) until the time when the appropriate model of man is produced.
Let me tell you this comrades, if you think for one second a nazi would think twice about condemning ALL communists to death if they succeded in their plan then you are dreamers.
If you chose to allow fascists and racists to have ANY platform of expression (again, they specifically target the youth for previous mentioned reasons) then YOU have forgotten the faces of every single person that was slaughtered in the name of fascism. YOU have forgotted every black man that has swung by his neck for being "uppity". You have forgotten the face of every Jew that was placed in an oven ALIVE. YOU have forgotten that fascist and racists rely on YOU supporting the ideology of "free speech" to aid them in their quest to warp the minds of out children with their filth. They rely on YOUR inability to waver from your bourgeois conditioning long enough to fight back with the intensity of true communist on a mission to serve the people.
DO NOT FORGET THESE FACES COMRADES.
Forgetting their faces is allowing another homosexual to be beaten to death. Forgetting their faces is allowing another black man to be lynched in front of his children. Forgetting their faces will allow another palestinian child to never see his/her father's face again because he was gunned down in the name of "democracy". Forgetting their faces will allow EVERY HUMAN BEING that is threatened by fascism and racism on this planet to live in fear, and perhaps even murdered for nothing more than being the "wrong colour, sex, sexual orientation, religion, or political ideology" in front of the wrong people.
You must remember, once communism is established, there will be no need to suppress any person's right to speak their minds as their minds will have been cleansed of this rotting, stinking disease that threatens ALL of manking, including YOU.
Edit:
I was real fired up on this one so please excuse the rant.
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein
I believe that racism is a desease which should be stamped out, ASAP. However I am not nieve enough to believe that you actually can. If someone says to you that they hate "niggers and gooks", then how are you going to prove that they said it? If it requiered only a few peoples word against another persons word, then that would have many problems, it would turn into a "witch hunt". Also it begs the question what would you do with racists? Send them to a shrink, imprison them, just shoot the fuckers? The latter makes us as bad as them and the other two would be very expensive. Not to mention it is an impossible task to abolish racism, as all people, when you get right down to it, have a fear of what they do not understand and fear breads hatred. People fear what is different, therefor racism is inevevitable. However those who act upon their racist views by commiting crimes of hate and joining Nazi partys, should be punished very severly, large amounts of community service and possibly jail sentances for repeat offenders.
To those who believe that freespeach is a "bourgeois" consept, I suggest they review the history of the bourgeoisie and feudalists etc, and see that infact generally those with views which differ from the bourgeois view point, were at best ignored or scorned and at worst punished by death and torture. As many people on this site believe (wrongly) that the bourgeoisie and capitalists are the same the same thing do explain to me, considering the bourgeoisie's traditional scorn of freedom of speach, how freedom of speach is bourgeoisie trait?
Another thing is that the only reason why you are posting on a socialist board like this one, and not being tortured and imprisoned, is because of your country allows freedom of speach. So how can it be a bad thing?
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
- Hanlon's Razor
The thing is, i KNOW the Fascsits would stop at nothing to supress us, we need to be different from them, not the same way, it doesnt matter agaisnt who, ur stripping speech from, ur stripping it. Even if it is the most racist, nationalist scum on the face of the earth, he still must speek his mind.
It is our job as enlightened socialists to recognize this, trust me a landslide will start from those in power soon restriciting everything else even anarchism and left socialism. It happened with the Soviets, with the CHinese, we shouldnt make those mistakes twice.
Youth can do whatever they want, they can chose for themselves they dont need our guidence, they can join Fascists if they like. It is what will foster debate, and continue a true Socialist Democracy, what u just gonna wait till all the old fascists die off?, so ur gonna censor their books too? then what?
It needs to stop with us. A true democratic society wont need to censor anything, because with the ppl on its side, it will be nearly invincible against propaganda from other powers.(corruption is another thing, which democracies succumb to and deteriorate)
RAF, lemme guess u read the RCP's draft programme? it talks about centralist democracy, BUT it also talks about limitless free speech, unless threatened directly with arms and violence.
Our true power over propaganda from outside sources(which is the primary source of our troubles in the beginning,), will be checked by a strong volunteer Partisan Army, and other orgs that sponsor free speech, that will be more than enough to stomp Fascsit politics, well need the Army for Fascsits OUTSIDE of our new Socialist state(all this hypothetical, this example is even more prevelant for a situation in which the revolution happens outside the US)
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Freedom is Freedom is Freedom...
You cant say freedom, unless your a nazi..thats bullshit..
everyone has to be free
and if your anti nazi, your free to speak an anti nazi message, etc..
“The soviets were the realisation of an objective need for an organisation which has authority without having tradition, and which can at once embrace hundreds of thousands of workers. An organisation, moreover, which can unify all the revolutionary tendencies within the proletariat, which possesses both initiative and self-control, and, which is the main thing, can be called into existence within 24 hours.” - Leon Trotsky
I have to agree with Comrade RAF that those who threaten the Proletariat, and those who spread hate speech dont deserve the luxury of "free speech". It is a liberal fallacy to think that this speech should be tolerated.
my basic opinions sumed up nicely, combat their free speech, with YOUR free speech
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn't become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche
So you sre aloud freedom of speech in this system of government, but you would deny it to the capitalist in a socialist system of government, and I thought we were supposed to be better than they are...
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
- Hanlon's Razor
