These are examples of violence against women.
And?
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These are examples of violence against women.
And?
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
they are films that seem to be glorifying in the gratuitous violence against woman. It is suppose to show the negative value and how it is one of many that use these types of film devices just to use female violence as entertainment.
but, if the point can't be apparently seen from that or my comments, then I'm deleting the entry, because otherwise it just seems to be perpetrating and glorifying it even further.
Isn't the 'action' film genre all about the entertainment of violence against men, primarily...I think there is little question that while domestic violence against women is a way of reinforcing patriarchal family relations (though not the most significant or effective way) - it is not entertaining to many people and it is not glorified in the media, especially not in comparison to violence against men which is often glorified for macho/militarist reasons.
I'm not sure if I've seen violence against women glorified in movies. When violence against women is in movies, from movies I've seen it is almost exclusively done by villains who are meant to be seen as reprehensible. Because violent domination in patriarchy is usually domestic violence, not macho street violence which is the kind of violence in movies.
Last edited by gorillafuck; 27th March 2011 at 14:38.
Throughout the history of film, the greatest reinforcement and perpetuation of patriarchy and sexism hasn't come from overt depictions of glorified violence, but from the overall portrayal of women. Up until maybe 25 years ago you would be very hard pressed to find a prominent female character that wasn't either a Theda Bara-esque femme fatale or a docile damsel in distress in need of a John Wayne type macho man to step in and defend her virtue.
Also, depicting violence =/= glorifying it.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
the three movies i listed depict domestic violence. One is a drama, the other two could be considered action movies of their time, minus the contemporary special-effects-blow ups-and-20 foot-leaps-across-skyscrapers-"Mission Impossible" "Die Hard With a Vengeance" scenes.
The movies i listed were "Raging Bull" (1980)/Robert Di Nero, a movie about heavy weight boxer Jake La Motta, with a scene where he breaks down the door and knocks out his wife cold with a left hook to the face. The movie portrays his violence both inside and outside the boxing ring, ending on a somewhat sympathetic note with him talking to himself in the mirror quoting the scene from On the Waterfront: Nobody was looking out for me..it wasn't my fault... "I coulda been a contender" etc. Seeming, thereby giving tacit approval to his domestic abuse.. "But's he's really a good guy deep down, it wasn't his fault." The glorification is that the movie is considered one of the Best Films of All Time.. granting Di Nero an Academy Award (probably deserved), jump starting La Motta's career again..(remember the 80's? no?) and currently ranks #75 of Top 250 movies on IMDB by it's public users.
The other movie was the 1972 "The Getaway" with Steve McQueen and Ali McGraw, a real-life couple at the time. This has a real and unscripted scene where he continuously slaps the shit out of her. a pretty disturbing scene on an otherwise pretty great and classic movie.
The other movie I listed was the 1994 badly-made remake of "The Getaway" with Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger, a married couple at the time, with an updated version of that scene, which seems to be simulated abuse scene as opposed to the original one, and where they at least give the female role some power by hitting him back twice.
Anyway, I'm not going to defend this position. It is not so much an issue for me. I identify class struggle over any feminist-gender lines. I proposed such an idea because I felt sorry for TC constantly bemoaning in threads and her feeling physically ill (in particular about this forum) that woman are objectified and oppressed by male domination and are males are completely oblivious to it. so I thought well, maybe we can point out where it's done in pop culture. Bad idea! when the most vocal opposition to patriarchy here contradicts her own platform.
Last edited by coda; 27th March 2011 at 18:46.
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense. Depictions of domestic violence do not inherently mean a glorification of them. Should we instead not depict them and pretend they don't exist? Dolores Claiborne has some brutal scenes of domestic abuse, but it would take an idiot to claim that that movie is aiding in the perpetuation of patriarchy. These examples you gave are depictions of the real life objectification and oppression women face, but they hardly are ammunition for apologists of misogyny. Knocked Up is a textbook example of sexism in cinema and there is not one scene of domestic abuse. The aforementioned Dolores Claiborne has very explicit scenes of domestic abuse, yet I challenge you to find a more empowering female lead. Depicting violence does not equate to its perpetuation.
And why state this position if you're not going to defend it? I think having an area of the forum either here or in the Lit and Film section where movies/books are analyzed from a feminist perspective is a great idea, I just think a very poor approach was taken here.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
I actually don't give a flying fuck.
As I said, I took a position due mainly in part in response to TC's constant laments and diatribes which start to sound like a bad tune you can't get out of your head.
Poor approach? As what?? Look, pointing out the domestic violence in one film does not absolve the sexism of another film. The two examples I used don't show an empowering female role, but defenseless victims of domestic violence! And one of those real battery I might add.
Look, this has nothing to do with TC or her very justified laments on the sexist nature of RevLeft, right now I'm addressing solely what you've said.
Depicting sexism is not the same as advocating or apologizing for it. Marla Singer is a strong woman and Fight Club is nonetheless a sexist movie. These things have to be viewed contextually, the movie I just made that you watched depicts a relatively defenseless woman being beaten and raped and I would take great offense at anyone claiming it was sexist. Sexism is rampant in film and has been since the beginning, I just don't think you picked very good examples for talking points.
You seem neat, but...
They divide us by our color, they divide us by our tongue,
They divide us men and women, they divide us old and young,
But they'll tremble at our voices when they hear these verses sung,
For the Union makes us strong!
Have you even seen the movie? If you were alive in the 80's and conscious enough to be aware of what was going on you would have seen in context the accolades and celebration he received after that movie. Jake La Motta = Mike Tyson on thousands of steroids.
Jake La Motta:
<<That’s the thing. I saw these obvious jerks and schmucks coming on with their lines and it bothered me. I never really and truly hit my wives. If I had hit them properly they would be dead. You know how it is: you slap around a broad just a little bit and everything is blown out of proportion.” >>
Jake La Motta, admitted rapist, wife beater in his own words.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle2434600.ece
Scorsese and co. made that movie of La Motta rather than his often opponent Sugar Ray Robinson or another boxer such as Ali (that movie wouldn't be made for a decade and 1/2) because it was Titillating and entertaining. Of course he was a killer in the ring.. but it was the killer out of the ring that made it interesting, particularly beating the hell out of his wives.
correction: "Ali" the movie was made 21 years later!!! what does that tell you? oh yes, and to add .... will Smith lost the academy award for that one.
Because patriarchal societies divide labor and social power along gendered lines, the feminist struggle for gender equality and parity against patriarchy is in fact a class struggle.
I'm not saying its a bad idea - there are plenty of examples of objectification of women in pop culture and plenty of examples of male dominance (though this often simply mirrors the male dominance in society, there are also special contributions like the disproportional number of male focused narratives in tv and film). I am just a little skeptical of this particular angle - but thats not to say that media/cultural analysis isn't a good idea - you can disagree with the individual critique while being open to other feminist critiques - and I am only skeptical don't even disagree with you - you deleted your original post so i have no idea what you actually wrote and I don't think I've seen the films you're writing about...I proposed such an idea because I felt sorry for TC constantly bemoaning in threads and her feeling physically ill (in particular about this forum) that woman are objectified and oppressed by male domination and are males are completely obliv to . so I thought well, maybe we can point out where it's done in pop culture. Bad idea! when the most vocal opposition to patriarchy here contradicts her own platform.
<<Because patriarchal societies divide labor and social power along gendered lines, the feminist struggle for gender equality and parity against patriarchy is in fact a class struggle.>>
yes and also divides worker's along gender lines.. making them akin to enemies.
Well, if you want to do that sort of thing --- feminist critiques-- then pop culture and other forms of media are a pretty good starting canvas because most everyone has the same reference point or some form of access/past access to it. I don't dismiss "art, as art's sake" from revolutionary critique.
any way.. just trying to ungratefully help you out, TC. It's hard being female in a male's world.
<<the movie I just made that you watched depicts a relatively defenseless woman being beaten and raped and I would take great offense at anyone claiming it was sexist.>>
Your film was hardly in the same category of violence that I pointed out.. the examples i cites were "domestic violence." the woman were in relationship with the men who was doling it out.
In the exact opposite vein, I complimented you on a nice piece of work, that was your film.. said I "loved it", had nothing at all negative to say, and sent two pms to make sure you recieved it.
I was stating a particular type of violence in the examples i used.
anyway.. I'm out..
Closing and unsticking thread- OP's request.
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
