Pornography Happens to Women

[GX.]

...sombody forgot to mention femdom

No, this has been addressed. And all this talk about femdom and gay porn and Dworkin being a misandrist (which is the equivalent of calling someone a reverse-racist, it's fucking ridiculous and doesn't exist) is just a red herring. Mainstream porn that isn't violent and dehumanizing towards women is exceedingly rare. For guys who watch it, those are the images that inform their perception of women. It's disturbing how many people don't want to admit this or don't see anything wrong with it.

[GX.]

I find people like you disgusting, people who like to ride around on a moral high-horse saying what women can and can't do with their own bodies, fuck you.

You kind of missed that the whole point of this is that men control what women do with their bodies.

[mosfeld]

I find people like you disgusting, people who like to ride around on a moral high-horse saying what women can and can't do with their own bodies, fuck you.

The majority of women who go into pornography or prostitution do so not out of "choice" but economic necessity. You have to be a fool to actually think that the women who go into pornography "like" to simulate gang rape, have their anus and throat penetrated, be double penetrated, be humiliated, etc, while being video taped with the expectations that teenagers will masturbate over that video. And even assuming that those women actually consensually entered the pornographic industry, there will still be women who will later date those boys who became aroused by that misogynist pornography, whose expectations of intercourse, relationships and even women were shaped by those videos.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Mainstream porn that isn't violent and dehumanizing towards women is exceedingly rare.

"Though I've sometimes felt that my job as a porn reviewer (for Web sites like FleshBot.com) is akin to being a canary in a bad-taste boys' club mine shaft, I've seen a change in quality in the past few years that I think is a direct reflection of the growing female audience. As more discriminating viewers, we've demanded better porn -- and lo, it is being made.Women are changing the market. " - Are more women OK with watching porn, by Violet Blue from O, The Oprah Magazine © 2009

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The majority of women who go into pornography or prostitution do so not out of "choice" but economic necessity.

"I didn't get into this for the money. I could have stayed in New York and made much more as a stripper." - Asa Akira

You have to be a fool to think that the women who go into pornography like to simulate gang rape, have their anus and throat penetrated, be double penetrated, be humiliated, etc, while being video taped with the expectations that teenagers will masturbate over that video.

Except that these things exist outside of porn; there are sex clubs, sex parties, "gangbang groups," huge amateur porn sites where people upload videos of such things without making any money at all from it, etc., etc., etc.

And even assuming that those women actually consensually entered the pornographic industry, there will still be women who will later date those boys who became aroused by that misogynist pornography, whose expectations of intercourse, relationships and even women were shaped by those videos.

"People get hysterical about sex. They want pornography to do the job that they themselves are not doing, which is educating our young people how to be safer. Unless a pornography movie is advertised as educational [...], it is not educational. And the fact that people are reduced to looking at an entertainment medium to find out about sex is sad. It would be less sad if it wasn't so tragic. Watching pornography to find out about how sex works is like watching a James Bond movie to find out how spies do their job." - Nina Hartley, porn veteran; former socialist

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Funny how so much of what comes from the left echos criticisms from the right. That's why it's so simple to find responses to these points with a quick Google search.

[GX.]

"Though I've sometimes felt that my job as a porn reviewer (for Web sites like FleshBot.com) is akin to being a canary in a bad-taste boys' club mine shaft, I've seen a change in quality in the past few years that I think is a direct reflection of the growing female audience. As more discriminating viewers, we've demanded better porn -- and lo, it is being made.Women are changing the market. " - Are more women OK with watching porn, by Violet Blue from O, The Oprah Magazine © 2009

The porn industry is still controlled by men, it still objectifies women and projects a very narrow male-centered view of sexuality. Hell, most of the stuff violet blue peddles is still aimed at men. And this is just the bourgeois myth of voting with your wallet. It's bullshit. This is the problem with a lot of "sex-positive" stuff, it fails to distinguish between the producers/owners and the workers involved in the sex industry, or it represents their interests as one and the same (often, the people putting these views forward are in a dominant class position, so it's in their interests to do this).

[GX.]

Funny how so much of what comes from the left echos criticisms from the right.

No, "feminism divides men and women" is a view of the right. That women should be free from male domination is not a view of the right.

[Tim Finnegan]

Pornography depicts women as subordinate objects which men can violently do anything to...

That's like saying that "action movies depict Arabs as violent fundamentalists". It's a criticism- an entirely valid one, granted- of the mainstream of an industry, imposed onto an entire genre. It's wilfully sloppy thinking.

[Hoplite]

It's disgusting that there are several so-called progressives, or "pro-sex" feminists, which support the bourgeois degenerate pornographic industry in the name of "freedom" (or something). In reality, this is the freedom for men to degrade, objectify and dehumanize women -- and the freedom of the bourgeoisie to make big money in the process.

Porn is not nearly as degrading as people seem to think it is. If the objection is to people being objectified and working in conditions where they feel degraded, then why are we objecting to porn and not to the vast majority of work in general?

I worked retail for three months and had to quit for reasons of mental health. I had a supervisor scream at my face, in front of the entire staff, that I was nothing to him but a pair of hands and that I could be replaced with a trained monkey if OSHA would let him. I'd consider that pretty fucking degrading.

"I've had very few experiences on porn sets that I would classify as 'degrading.' I've had infinitely more degrading experiences as a waitress or a barista in a chain coffeeshop than I've ever had on set. That, of course, has everything to do with working conditions and nothing to do with what I'm actually doing as my job." - Lorelei Lee

This, so much this.

Something I dont understand about the "porn objectifies women" shtick is men are also part of porn. Why are there no complaints of MEN being objectified?

The porn industry is still controlled by men, it still objectifies women and projects a very narrow male-centered view of sexuality.

Five years ago, I'd have agreed with you.

I would say that porn is still heavily male-run, but it's not controlled by men. There are dozens of female directors and several production studios owned and run by females.

I dont see that porn has a male-centered view of sexuality, at least not anymore. There is porn out there for literally everything and the vast majority of everything else is NOT male centric.

[Tim Finnegan]

Something I dont understand about the "porn objectifies women" shtick is men are also part of porn. Why are there no complaints of MEN being objectified?

Well, if we're just talking about sexual objectification, then it's because the men generally aren't. In mainstream porn, male performers play the role of a "proxy cock", a blank canvas onto which a male viewer may impose himself, and so is not refused acknowledgement of individual agency- objectified- as female performers generally are. Of course, that's only sexual objectification, which is primarily problematic in that it contributes to a broader social hierarchy of male dominance. Individually, as workers, yes, male performers are objectified as much as female ones, and both of those are generally as objectified as any wage-worker.

I often think that the downfall of the Radical/Anti-porn Feminist Camp is that, for all its bluster of self-declared "radicalism", it declines to challenge significant parts of patriarchal ideology, beyond passing a new value-judgement on them. In this case, for example, it is simply accepted that, as patriarchy dictates, a woman playing the role of the "whore" of the Madonna/Whore dichotomy is necessarily and invariably degrading herself. However, a closer examination of this dichotomy suggests that the very reason that the "whore" is reviled is because it suggests a subjective sexuality which is traditionally monopolised by men, and so threatens male privilege; that the "whore", is, in fact, a powerful figure. Mainstream pornography is therefore forced to go out of its way to objectify the female performers, to engage in a sort of self-contradiction in defence of male privilege. This suggests, then, that to remove this objectification would leave one with a fairly strong declaration of female sexuality, and would, in fact, allow the creation of potentially very feminist pornography. Which, as it happens, is more or less exactly what feminist pornographers are doing.

[9]

Nothing Human is Alien neg-repped me with a comment that I should "take my morals to church".

I think "neg-repping" is petty as hell, but I agree 100% with the comment he left you.

Also, I would write something more substantive on the topic, but there are more important things going on right now and anyway I'm pretty busy. So I'll just echo this:

I find people like you disgusting, people who like to ride around on a moral high-horse saying what women can and can't do with their own bodies, fuck you.

[Summerspeaker]

The explicit anti-feminism here makes me a sad panda - though not, of course, a surprised one. There's a reason one of my extremely radical friends doesn't identity as a leftist. Despite the hate, I'm pleased to see Dworkin quoted at length here. Invoking the doctrine of personal freedom against eir critique makes about as much sense as doing so against Marx.

[Tim Finnegan]

Invoking the doctrine of personal freedom against eir critique makes about as much sense as doing so against Marx.

I'm not sure if that analogy follows. Marx argued against the bourgeois understanding of personal freedom in itself, but Dworkin simply argued against mainstream interpretations; the former sought to contest liberalism at its heart, the latter merely to re-deploy it in the service of her movement.

[PhoenixAsh]

No, this has been addressed. And all this talk about femdom and gay porn and Dworkin being a misandrist (which is the equivalent of calling someone a reverse-racist, it's fucking ridiculous and doesn't exist) is just a red herring. Mainstream porn that isn't violent and dehumanizing towards women is exceedingly rare. For guys who watch it, those are the images that inform their perception of women. It's disturbing how many people don't want to admit this or don't see anything wrong with it.

Your opinion is ridiculous if you actually argue that misandrism and reverse racism do not exist. Laughable.

You are actually arguing that hatred of men does noot exist. That black people do not hate white people. And are actually saying tha only a majority OR men can actually be hatefull of others and judge them on their race sex or anything else.

Do you have any idea how incredibly stupid and out of this world that is?

And nice to know that YOU seem to have the wisdom what does and does not enforce perceptions which may not even exist.

[PhoenixAsh]

You kind of missed that the whole point of this is that men control what women do with their bodies.

Are you arguing that all women are forced in the porn industry?

[PhoenixAsh]

The explicit anti-feminism here makes me a sad panda - though not, of course, a surprised one. There's a reason one of my extremely radical friends doesn't identity as a leftist. Despite the hate, I'm pleased to see Dworkin quoted at length here. Invoking the doctrine of personal freedom against eir critique makes about as much sense as doing so against Marx.

It the mysandric proportions radical feminism can take in its extremes I am against. And Dworkin is a perfect example. If ANYBODY would have made these statements about women they would have been banned/restricted here and its pretty sad to see that so many leftist and so called fighters for equal society seem to carry this as a banner for the liberated society of equality.

[Blackscare]

And even assuming that those women actually consensually entered the pornographic industry, there will still be women who will later date those boys who became aroused by that misogynist pornography, whose expectations of intercourse, relationships and even women were shaped by those videos.

You're absolutely right. This reminds me of when I got my first car, I attached a machine gun and rockets to the top and went around mowing down pedestrians and blowing up other cars. Anyway, turns out that that's illegal, but I thought it was OK because I played a lot of Twisted Metal as a kid. Oh, the injustice of it all! How was I to ever know!


Also, as a Queer male, I have to point out how utterly heterocentric that article, and the rest of the discourse on it, has been (with the exception of one user, I believe). It totally ignores the hoards of young gay males who involve themselves in porn for basically the same reasons that many young women do (I know both gay males and women who have done porn, if that gives me more 'cred' here :P); they are seriously damaged, vulnerable, and unstable people.

Many have a history of abuse, low self-worth, etc, and they get into the porn industry because it pays well and it grants them access to a niche that supports all their habits and seems like the natural evolution from a fucked up home life and such. It's a cesspool of predators, con-artists, and dealers that young potential victims flock to.

It's not an issue of gender, it's an issue of an industry that institutionalizes the blatant exploitation of victims and encourages self-destructive lifestyles. But I suppose it only matters if its a female, right? Not some skinny little gay boy of 18, going to LA to get all the free coke he can stuff up his nose while scumbags take advantage of him. Have any of you ever met anyone in professional porn? They're almost all fucked up, either in a predatory way or as "natural born" victims.

To me, the most blatant contempt for males that I've seen coming from the "radical feminist" crowd is their disregard for males in porn. Also, to try to portray women as totally unable to resist being herded onto a porn set and violated whilst men always freely choose seems pretty contemptuous of women as well! What, men can "handle it" but women can't? Give me a break.



Also, I never seem to get an answer out of people when I mention "tube" sites, like xtube. These sites are typically based on user-submitted pornography. Homemade material that is usually not made for economic gain. Believe it or not, though it may not fit your world view, but many people, both men and women, really do choose to do porn because they get something out of it. I think more of those people are doing this sort of stuff than the "pro" porn, however.





This is a more complex problem than anyone here is portraying it as. Some get into porn because they're just voyeurists (xtubers, etc), some get into it for the quick money and the lifestyle. We need to focus on how pornography can cease to appeal to and exploit the most vulnerable people. I think that this means "communalizing" pornography, which is already happening on the internet. To assume that "pornography", as a monolithic entity, could be "abolished" in any scenario is beyond silly, and certainly simplistic. How was it created? Why was it created? These are the important questions.

[Blackscare]

It the mysandric proportions radical feminism can take in its extremes I am against. And Dworkin is a perfect example. If ANYBODY would have made these statements about women they would have been banned/restricted here and its pretty sad to see that so many leftist and so called fighters for equal society seem to carry this as a banner for the liberated society of equality.

Yes, it's sad to see people who supposedly support women's rights also claiming that basically under no circumstances would a woman ever be able to consent to being filmed while doing the deed. As if women are somehow more pure or delicate flowers that would never, ever, do anything distasteful without patriarchy forcing them to. It dehumanizes men and it puts women on a pedestal that isn't that much different from archaic depictions of women as the more inherently "virtuous" sex.

This thread reminds me of some old victorian picture I saw of a penis in a top hat and bow tie sitting at the bench in a courtroom with a woman up striking an accusatory pose and pointing at the giant mr moneybags dick. The caption was something like "Its not my fault, your honor, I was seduced!" Because no woman, of course, would ever opt to be "unchaste" if it weren't for that evil penis!

[PhoenixAsh]

To me, the most blatant contempt for males that I've seen coming from the "radical feminist" crowd is their disregard for males in porn. Also, to try to portray women as totally unable to resist being herded onto a porn set and violated whilst men always freely choose seems pretty contemptuous of women as well! What, men can "handle it" but women can't? Give me a break.

I just wanted to lift this out of your post......I can not agree more.