Thread: The Left branded as apologists for terrorism

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  1. #1
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    I've noticed in various newspaper articles, editorials, letters to the editor and commentary in other media, the growing refrain that those on the 'left', in expressing condemnation of US led terrorism and in urging all parties to examine the full context of events and terrorism as a phenomenon, constitute apologists for the S11 terrorists and terrorism.

    Indeed, it was Tony Blair who stated clearly in his neo-liberal megalomaniacal address: 'Understand the causes of terror. Yes, we should try. But let there be no moral ambiguity about this: Nothing could ever justify the events of September 11, and it is to turn justice on its head to pretend it could'. Blair is equating the desire to contextualise the issues invoked by these attacks with tacit justification of terrorism.

    Salman Rushdie has written in the New York Times:
    "It's time to stop making enemies and start making friends. To say this is in no way to join in the savaging of the United States by sections of the Left that has been among the most unpleasant consequences of the terrorists' attacks on the US. "The problem with Americans is..." - "What America needs to understand..." There has been a lot of sanctimonious moral relativism around lately, usually prefaced by such phrases as these. A country which has just suffered the most devastating terrorist attack in history, a country in a deep state of mourning and horrible grief, is being told, heartlessly, that it is to blame for its citizens deaths."

    Apart from Rushdie's gross generalisations there is the matter of labelling allegedly leftist commentary one of 'the most unpleasant consequences' of the terrorism. Really? That's quite an assertion in light of the mass homicide, the destabilising of America and arguably the entire globe psychologically, economically and politically, the displacement of thousands of Afghans, the ensuing cycle of violence and death, the war that now threatens us all.

    It is profoundly illogical and unreasonable to extrapolate 'moral ambiguity' from the desire to examine the history of relevant global politics and the suggestion that all global citizens (including Americans!) would be wise to seek out political education.

    On what evidence is this logical leap being made that the desire to understand the context of terrorism constitutes moral relativism? Where are the citations of respected authority to support such a grave charge?

    I have seen a few comments on Web bbs that state things to the effect of 'America deserved this' etc but I have yet to see express or implied leftist affiliation by any such authors. The one voice that I know to be espousing such views expressly is that of extreme right neo-Nazis.

    For what it's worth, here's my position as a 'lefty' who seeks to examine the history and context to improve my understanding...

    There is no justification for terrorism - the indiscriminate infliction of homicide - the perpetrator, victim, cause, ideology etc do not affect the applicability of that non-negotiable principle. This absence of moral relativism enables me to remain immune to manipulative language that labels one party a 'terrorist' and another a 'freedom fighter'. This absence of moral relativism means that I know that to draw artificial distinctions between the terrorist activities of Osama bin Laden (assuming his guilt for the sake of argument) and those of the US government would be a true embodiment of moral relativism.

    This is an attempt to silence voices of reasoned dissent through the manipulation of language and distortion of logic - and an attempt to invalidate an entire sociopolitical group through accusations of moral infirmity. Let's make the distinctions clear to all who would be influenced by these ethically indefensible fallacious accusations.
    It cannot but be supportive, socialist, communist or whatever you want to call it. Does nature, and the human species with it, have much time left to survive in the absence of such change? Very little time. Who will be the builders of that new world? The
  2. #2
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    I was just about to start a thread to post the Socialist Party USA's statement, but I'll just add it here as it's related....

    The Socialist Party U.S.A. stands in complete outrage at the actions of the US Government to bomb Kabul and other cities and towns in Afghanistan. This retribution is not and cannot be just. Instead this military aggression will only lead to more violence; endless cycles of retribution and war will again be in all our lives; innocent people will die; and we will be no better than the September 11 hijackers. Never in history has peace been obtained through war.
    We are sorely disappointed, though hardly surprised, that the U.S. government's campaign of so-called "Infinite Justice" has not and probably will not be conducted in a court of international law. To do so would open the possibility of true justice, where all crimes against humanity - those conducted against the U.S.A. and those conducted by it - are prosecuted fairly.

    We join socialists, anti-war and peace organizations, labor unions and all others worldwide in declaring our firm and passionate opposition to policies and actions that lead to war. The people of Afghanistan have never been, and will never be, our enemy.
    In Solidarity,
    RC
  3. #3
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    those people shall be no worse off now than they were before the buildings were destroyed,
    why was nobody sending military aid to the rebel forces before this happened?
    but again, infuriating as world politics are, they are still the same as they have allways been.
    Eddie:An dog on an skateboard
    that accidentally hangs itself
    and then catches fire!
  4. #4
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    I believe the reason why the left is seen as apologist for terrorist is because the left is trying to explain the events of the past month as something that was deserved. Moreover this feeling, on behalf of the left, carries with it the implication that we, the US, must change our policies.
    Why is that wrong. First off if the US were to change its policies now in response to what occurred we would be capitulating to terrorist. It would set a dangerous precedent, if america showed that is policy could be affected by terrorist acts then we would only invite more atrocities on ourselves. In light of what happened america should be more resolute in its support of the Israeli government, and more vigilant in its confinement of saddam hussein.

    The reason that I point out those two policies are because the left seems to belief that those policies are primarily responsible for what has occurred. Yet that is false. Often Leftist say that we must be careful not to judge other cultures with our values, that we must not view others through our moral lense, or project our ideas of right and wrong on them. To say that the attacks are a result of US policy is to do just that. It is to project leftist values on the terrorist. These terrorist are not fighting for the dispossed, they are not fighting against capitalism, as a matter of fact they are not fighitng against the state of israel (how many bin laden or al queda attacks have there been against israeli intersts? In another thread I supported an argument by a guest that showed why bin laden and the taliban are not active supporters of the destruction of israel) They are simply fighting for the destruction of the US. The left needs to stop imposing its moral lense on the terrorist, they need to realize that no human chains will stop such atrocities, protests will unfortunately appear to them as a sign of weakness (im not saying protesting is bad, its a right. but remeber that the military action being takens is defending that right to protest). Rather than take the leftist line that we should change our policies we should apply them with more vigor.

    Moreover I think politically the attacks have helped to reconcile leftists with patriotism. It is healthy to see leftist embrace their nation, which most are, if only because they will gain more credibility when trying to change it from the inside. It is annoying to anyone who is objective to hear leftist get called anti american, and now that they are comming out in support of america they will not be seen as such.

    I mean didn't anyone here realize that Salman rushdie. a great a writer by the way(if your're looking for good reads try the moors last sigh, or Midnights children, or if you garcia marquez whom rushdie emulates in style) and tony blair are both of the left.
    I\'m right, and you\'re wrong. -Vox
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    Quote: from AgustoSandino on 5:44 am on Oct. 10, 2001
    It is healthy to see leftist embrace their nation, which most are, if only because they will gain more credibility when trying to change it from the inside. It is annoying to anyone who is objective to hear leftist get called anti american, and now that they are comming out in support of america they will not be seen as such
    Well, I wouldn't call the left anti-American because they want to change the country from the inside, I would call them anti-American because they hate almost everything America stands for. They would like to see America as it is destroyed, politically, socially, militarily, and economically. They don't see America as their country in the least. They envision an America that has no resemblance to the current state. Any American ideals that anyone anywhere would consider good or morally correct like "justice" or "freedom", the left would argue that those ideals are perverted or hypocritical in practice by the American government. They don't even want to free the "oppressed" American working class, because whether they like it or not, the working class generally agrees with the American system and its policies - in general. There are always disagreements about policy, but very few want to see the radical changes that the left want. When I say left, I mean the left that is represented on these boards, not the left in Washington, which the people on these boards would no doubt consider part of the American political machine, little different from the right. The left is definitely anti-American, and I'm sure they don't deny that. I'm curious to know how many of them leave the U.S. to live in a freer, socialist paradise.
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    Agusto - you have extrapolated from the desire to contextualise the issues that leftists think the attacks were 'deserved' - this is precisely what I have rejected - please provide evidence - did you read my original post at all? You've just reiterated the same distortions of logic that I highlighted above.

    Madmax - I am a leftist on 'these boards' - I say to you also - did you read my original post properly? You've made one big gross generalisation about 'leftists' without any authority, yet if you had read and/or understood what I've said above, you would see how innacurate your simplistic refrain is.

    (Edited by Chancho at 6:49 am on Oct. 10, 2001)
    It cannot but be supportive, socialist, communist or whatever you want to call it. Does nature, and the human species with it, have much time left to survive in the absence of such change? Very little time. Who will be the builders of that new world? The
  7. #7
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    You rule, Chancho! I just wanted to say that!

    Max is generally spouting out what is generally accepted about the left. Nothing new there and for the most part, entirely untrue.

    God forbid anyone should critisize the status quo.
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    Jurhael,
    Tell me how I am wrong. I didn't try to argue about what I thought was wrong with the left, I simply said that they are anti-American. Have you read these boards? Was that an insult to you, or did you suppose that I was trying to attack your viewpoint? I simply made an observation. Tell me how the left, as it's represented here, is NOT anti-American. Why would you even try to defend their position? I thought that was your purpose here. To read the bulk of these posts and to argue with me that the left is not anti-American is really silly. Why the sudden change of heart? I also observe that most of you can't spell very well. That's not an insult, just another observation. Or am I spouting what is generally accepted?
    Chancho,
    What "authority" do I have? None. Same as you. This is my observation. A pretty simple one. Your post has nothing to do with the observation I made that you have taken as a value judgement. I didn't know you would be insulted by what you're otherwise proud to show. Please enlighten me as to how you/the left are not anti-American. I thought America was bad.
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    thanks Jurhael :cheesy:

    ...and re the status quo - that's exactly right - these simplistic right wingers are like dissent-seeking missiles.
    It cannot but be supportive, socialist, communist or whatever you want to call it. Does nature, and the human species with it, have much time left to survive in the absence of such change? Very little time. Who will be the builders of that new world? The
  10. #10
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    Quote: from madmax on 7:19 am on Oct. 10, 2001
    Jurhael,
    Tell me how I am wrong. I didn't try to argue about what I thought was wrong with the left, I simply said that they are anti-American. Have you read these boards? Was that an insult to you, or did you suppose that I was trying to attack your viewpoint? I simply made an observation. Tell me how the left, as it's represented here, is NOT anti-American. Why would you even try to defend their position? I thought that was your purpose here. To read the bulk of these posts and to argue with me that the left is not anti-American is really silly. Why the sudden change of heart? I also observe that most of you can't spell very well. That's not an insult, just another observation. Or am I spouting what is generally accepted?
    Chancho,
    What "authority" do I have? None. Same as you. This is my observation. A pretty simple one. Your post has nothing to do with the observation I made that you have taken as a value judgement. I didn't know you would be insulted by what you're otherwise proud to show. Please enlighten me as to how you/the left are not anti-American. I thought America was bad.
    The label 'anti-American' is easy to throw around, isn't it Madmax? - just like 'unAmerican'.

    But what do you really mean by it? Anti the American people? I haven't seen that here. Anti US government policy? Yes, there is much of that thinking here. Anti the American way of life? That requires division again into precise points - some aspects yes, some no. Anti American culture, values etc? This requires further questioning - Is there a general culture? Are there general values? You might argue so but you could equally argue not. This is not exhaustive, of course. There are many other 'categories' that could be identified. So what are you accusing the 'left' of, exactly, when you say 'anti-American'?

    Ask me point by point and I'll tell you my personal position exactly. Will that enable you to justly extrapolate what the left thinks? Of course not. It will merely enable you to understand what I happen to think - which I have no doubt wouldn't interest you in the slightest.

    I've seen good spellers here and poor spellers - your point? Are you attempting to extrapolate again from such a trivial observation (no doubt something in relation to intelligence, education etc)?

    Have I taken your post as a value judgment? Not even that Madmax - just automated rhetoric.

    I am pro-humanity Madmax - that is why I reject nationalism and blind patriotism - I reject the artificial distinctions drawn between humans. Such distinctions justify terrorism in all its forms - whether inflicted by Osama bin Laden or GW Bush.

    You would find people like me standing up in defence of you if you found yourself at the receiving end of artificial categorisation - not people like yourself who are so willing to subscribe to the labels and divisions. Think about the big picture for a change and have some respect for freedom of thought.



    (Edited by Chancho at 8:04 am on Oct. 10, 2001)
    It cannot but be supportive, socialist, communist or whatever you want to call it. Does nature, and the human species with it, have much time left to survive in the absence of such change? Very little time. Who will be the builders of that new world? The
  11. #11
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    I have served this country. I have trained to defend this country. I gave a chunk of my life to this country. I resent that you would have the nerve to attack people on this board for their views. We are not all "Anti-American" as much as anti-capitalism, or anti-imperialism. At least that has been my observation. So, as a staunch American I think it would be wise to try to remember that the basic beginnings of this country were about freedom. The freedom to desire change in government is very "American". That is the root of this countries foundation. So, when you look at these posts and start throwing out propagandist phrases like "anti-American" you should stop and think about that.

    By the way, what is all this crap about spelling. It is getting very dull. Quit with the personal jabs and try to pay attention to the reasoning instead of the spelling. That is what this is all about. Posting your feelings, thoughts, desires, etc.. We "leftists" don't even use the spelling against the right-wingers who come to this board. If that is the strongest point of your arguments here, you need to give up. It is just ridiculous.
    Ask not what your country can do for you, or what you can do for your country. Ask what you can do for one another.
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    Hell, I don't have to say much at all! YAY! But yea, for me to say anything would be pretty much echoing what's already been said.

    I'm not so much anti-capitalism but critical of it which puts me to the right of many people here.

    As for anti-imperialism. If it's meant in terms of taking over another country, then hell yea, I'm anti-imperialism.

    But I'm by no means anti-freedom or anti-american?? Certainly NOT Un-American.
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    Quote: from ViktorPravda on 9:04 am on Oct. 10, 2001
    I have served this country. I have trained to defend this country. I gave a chunk of my life to this country. I resent that you would have the nerve to attack people on this board for their views. We are not all "Anti-American" as much as anti-capitalism, or anti-imperialism. At least that has been my observation. So, as a staunch American I think it would be wise to try to remember that the basic beginnings of this country were about freedom. The freedom to desire change in government is very "American". That is the root of this countries foundation. So, when you look at these posts and start throwing out propagandist phrases like "anti-American" you should stop and think about that.

    By the way, what is all this crap about spelling. It is getting very dull. Quit with the personal jabs and try to pay attention to the reasoning instead of the spelling. That is what this is all about. Posting your feelings, thoughts, desires, etc.. We "leftists" don't even use the spelling against the right-wingers who come to this board. If that is the strongest point of your arguments here, you need to give up. It is just ridiculous.
    Well well… It’s good to see I’m not the only leftist vet. On this bb. Now I see why I agree with most everything you say VP… unlike some you’ve actually been out in the real world… and seen for yourself that the system doesn’t work and is in dire need of change. No offence to my young student comrades, but it’s one thing to be a college student and philosophies about Marxism… It’s quite another to go out into the real world and see why socialism is worth struggling for. I do wonder why my bad habit of posting without spell checking was the only thing I’ve ever been personally attacked on… epically when I’ve seen these people personally attack quite a few of my comrades on this bb. However this is the only place I can freely express my political and religious views without being called a commie bastard and devil worshiper. So much to the dismay of those offended by my poor spelling ability, I’ll continue to post on this bb…

    (Edited by RedCeltic at 3:39 pm on Oct. 10, 2001)
    In Solidarity,
    RC
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    Red,
    I would diasapprove whole-heartedly with you ever leaving this board. I thoroughly enjoy your posts. Keep fighting.
    Ask not what your country can do for you, or what you can do for your country. Ask what you can do for one another.
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    Nah... I'm not leaving... this board is too addictive... it's like my crack...
    In Solidarity,
    RC

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