Oh so simple....

Zarathustra · 8th October 2001, 20:15

Before I begin this short statement I want to condemn the terrorists that did this terrible catastrophe in the world trade centre and wish all my condolences to the families involved in this disaster.

During the reigning years of capitalism in the world, there have been many petty wars going within and outside the capital system. Today it seems that the U.S has launched an attack on Afghanistan. Now I’ am sure you comrades reading this must be against this terrible American crusade, but there are several of you that must favour this attack for it abolishes a religious movement within the country, in which people live in poverty, and also live under the rule of the Taliban system in which women are beaten if their ankles are shown or public hangings are taken place for not attending the daily ritual prayer for the Islam religion.

By looking at the recent events and events from the past we can see why Afghanistan was such an easy target for the U.S.

When the Russians attacked Afghanistan during 1978-1989 Osama Bin Ladin had been working for the Americans, probably the CIA who deals with outside affairs. Osama Bin Ladin made an uprising against the Russians in Afghanistan. We all know this don’t we people? Well anyway that’s what happened and by helping Afghans, the Americans thought they were doing the right thing by helping them against Communism, which has always been the capitalist view. So anyway, as time progressed the Gulf War took place, and as some people may know, that in the Islam religion, there is a circumference around Mecca (where the grave of prophet Mohammed lies) that no one is allowed to enter that circumference apart from Muslims. As it happens some soldiers entered this area, and a couple of days later Osama Bin Ladin released a video saying that he will oppose these Western countries who entered there and consider them as enemies. What a coincidence!!

Years later we have this terrible tragedy in which many lives are lost. Now looking at this from a political perspective, if it was Osama Bin Ladin, he attacked a symbol in the western world that was not also a political but of an economic motive. After the incident, Wall Street had closed for about 5 days. From this the dollar had dropped and what is the fastest way of making money?

War and the sale of arms.

But does this give us a condemnation for the sufferers or just an excuse for the Americans to use this condemnation to its advantage against the people and make money?

**reagan lives** · 8th October 2001, 21:49

OK, I'm not going to explain what's wrong with your little history lesson, since I've done that in other threads already and I grow weary of it. Instead we'll cut right to the chase.

Your punchline here is that "War and the sale of arms" is the fastest way to make money, and the implication obviously is that America's motive behind carrying out military operations in Afghanistan is to somehow turn a profit (of course, it couldn't possibly be because domestic politics dictate that Bush has no choice whatsoever about using force if he wants to keep his job). But let's start at the fundamentals: How is war the fastest way to make money? Explain.

Zarathustra · 8th October 2001, 23:01

Excuse me but i don’t see any mistakes in my so called "history lesson" why don’t you go and do some research because Osama Bin Ladin did work for America to make a uprising against the Russians for the Afghans.

Also Reagan to carry that absurd name surely you must also think like the man.

Well Reagan let me give you a bit of history lesson. The western counties like America, Britain & France are some in which all they do is make arms. That’s all they do just make arms. Ill repeat it just for you, That’s all they do just make arms.

Well once you make something you need to sell it, right, because that’s what the capital economy is. Making and selling. Us socialists call this (ill spell it out for you)
C-A-P-I-T-A-L P-R-O-D-U-C-T-I-O-N. Production is the main economy for the capital system (apart from privatisation which is irrelevant).

Anyway, so now you understand the arms sale, in which western countries make arms to sell. If America is concerned so much about terrorism, how come they are selling arms to the IRA. (A little clue, to make a lot of money).

So where does war come into this. Well, we all know what reparation is don’t we? Well, ill tell you just to make sure. Its when the country that looses has to pay for every bullet fired, every bomb dropped, for every fuel wasted on the tanks, the shells fired from the tanks, the uniforms of the soldiers, the food of the soldiers, everything you can think of that YOU had spent doing for the cause of the war, you charge the other country(s). We are talking millions and millions of dollars, sterling pounds or whatever currency, a lot of money.

So it must come to my conclusion that arms sale and war is a very easy way of making money.

**ViktorPravda** · 9th October 2001, 01:16

Arms sales are not the only profit from war. Factories in many areas increase production and profit. War is profit. Look at our history. Economy slumps to farr over and we find we are in national crisis, then one thing or another happens and we are at war.

**AgustoSandino** · 9th October 2001, 05:28

Actually Zarathustra I think you're right. As a matter of fact I think nearly everyone I know here in the US majored in arms manufacture or at least did a minor in gun traficking.

Although reagan is tired of rebutting to the assertion that we created Osama bin Laden, I suppose I shall make an effort. Yes the United States did support anti-soviet forces in afghanistan and with good reason, because if you don't remember the soviet union sucked so much that the soviet people themselves didn't want it. But the people that America helped were the Mujahadeen. Following the soviet collapse in 1992 Afghanistan entered a new round of civil war, by this point america was no longer involved in afghanistan (this was a mistake, we should've helped foster a government conducive to democracy and capitalism), so Pakistan not wanting a black hole on its western border decided to aid the taliban. Pakistan believed that having a moslem fundementalist state in afghanistan would help it gather more cannon fodder for its conflict against India in Kashmir. By this time Osama bin Laden had declared war on America, and his first strike in Mogadishu, Somalia had already been carried out.
Now you assert correctly that osama bin laden wants the US out of Saudi Arabia, but you seem to agree with his pathetic explanation. First off if you believe the folly of some G.I.'s is enough to warrant a declaration of war against america, and a decree that all americans should be killed, then by all means say so outright and don't allude to your feelings. Secondly, the reason Osama bin laden wants the US out of saudia arabia is so that the US military may not stand in the way of radical islam's overthrow of middle eastern regimes. Some might say that this is an example of american heavy handedness. If it is the case tha America violates the will of the peoples of the middle east by hindering the development of radical islamic states, then I hope our hand becomes heavier.

To return to your later assertion that the US sells arms to the IRA you are wrong, sure the IRA might smuggle weapons out of the US, but the fact that they must smuggle them attest to the fact that the US doesn't allow arm sales to the IRA.

And while you may be right about what reparations do, when is the last time you saw the US make a nation unfairly pay reparations. Wilson opposed reparations in WW1, the french pushed for them. We successfully oppossed them in WW2, while the French and Soviets pushed for them. And those reparations exacted on Iraq following the gulf war, the seizure of Iraqi assests, were used to pay for the rebuilding of kuwait.

You did seem to get one thing right, a capitalist ECONOMY is the making and selling of products, as a matter of fact ANY ECONOMY is based on the manufacture and exchange of products.

**Chief Rebel Angel** · 9th October 2001, 13:29

Quote: from ViktorPravda on 6:16 am on Oct. 9, 2001
Arms sales are not the only profit from war. Factories in many areas increase production and profit. War is profit. Look at our history. Economy slumps to farr over and we find we are in national crisis, then one thing or another happens and we are at war.

another profit from war: government bonds...

AgustoSandino, u have brought up a very good point, which is that arabs do want the us military out of their lands.. but then again, they do not want an islamic extremist(notice i did not use fundamentalist, since it does not apply on the taliban) regime to take over... thats a tough situation... being forced to choose the less worse thing... whatever that is..

**Che Vive** · 9th October 2001, 13:41

i couldnt agree more CRA.

**Guest** · 9th October 2001, 17:42

when people make statements like "i couldn't agree more," refer to what you couldnt agree more with. Government war bonds, because this is obviously the LARGE kind of war in which the US needs to borrow from its population. Do any of you know how war bonds, or any bonds work?

**Chief Rebel Angel** · 9th October 2001, 18:09

my economics teacher told me that war bonds r bonds issued by the government, which the ppl buy and the government gets that money... they return their money to them later with interest... so it is kind of an investment... is that right?

**AgustoSandino** · 10th October 2001, 03:25

Yup that is how government bonds work, but I think guest meant to imply that such bonds, as all government bonds are available to everyone in a nation, or abroad for that matter. That means that if the situation arises where the US needs to borrow money for this war, which is highly unlikely, then everyone will be legally able to buy them.

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