Marxist-Leninists support The Holocaust!

[RED DAVE]

I would consider reporting this action. Your teacher has, in effect, accused you of supporting the holocaust and antisemitism. I would report this to his superior. Assuming he's a teacher within the History department, report him to the department head. If that garners no response, go higher, maybe to the Dean of Students.

I would preface my report with an apology for making a scene, and while you are apologetic in regards to raising your voice and acting out of hand, you still feel as though it was somewhat justified given the severity of claims being made against you and completely without justification.

Do this first as it lets your teacher know that you aren't going to be pushed around simply because he is 'the teacher.'

- August

This is right on. As a teacher and a Jew who lost perhaps 1/3 of my family in the holocaust, I strongly suggest that you fight back on this. We will help you.

RED DAVE

[syndicat]

the accusation that opposition to Zionism is "anti-semitism" is the last desperate line of defense used by defenders of the discriminatory Israeli state in the U.S. Steve Shalom has a very good refutation of the latest versions of this argument on ZNet:

http://www.zcommunications.org/anti-...stephen-shalom

By definiing Israel as a "Jewish state" and denying equal rights to the indigenous Palestinian population, and expelling them from their own country (as hundreds of thousands were) and seizing their lands, the Israeli state pursues a policy that is as racist as that which built the USA thru similar genocide and ethnic cleansing of the indigenous American Indians. The Palestinians are themselves a semitic people (and many probably have ancient Judeans as ancestors), so in that sense Zionism is "anti-semitic."

if this teacher said that "Marxists-Leninists" "deny the Holocaust", that is really beyond the pale. i'm no friend of MLism but that's just an outright falsehood. even tho I'm an ex-teacher, i agree with the idea of reporting the teacher for this kind of behavior.

[9]

I have yet to see any such Stalinist propaganda until now

Well I guess that might be part of the problem...

However even Trotsky admits that the over-representation of Jews in the urban-bureaucracy may have increased the suspicions of the culturally backward workers and peasants who already despised the urban-bureaucracy to begin with.

So what are you saying?

[resurgence]

, right? However even Trotsky admits that the over-representation of Jews in the urban-bureaucracy may have increased the suspicions of the culturally backward workers and peasants who already despised the urban-bureaucracy to begin with.

You are on dangerous ground, where did Trotsky admit such a thing? I mean base reaction should not be pandered too...And even if Trotsky did, well so what?

[scarletghoul]

We all agree that anti-Semitism was used or at least left unopposed by some people in the party/state, and I hope we all agree that that was terrible and unjustified. The only questions are 1, who used it and 2, to what extent.

My opinion is that 1, Stalin wasn't an anti-Semite but he bears overall responsibility for what happened on his watch and as a part of his purges etc etc, and 2, the scale of anti-Semitism was nothing like that of Tsarist Russia or other Eastern European countries in the 1930s, and its absolutely ridiculous to claim otherwise.

[Amphictyonis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

Your teacher is probably getting his misguided view from a perversion of "The Jewish Question". Having that said antisemitism was almost the norm in Marx's time. You should read some of Bakunins views concerning Jews. I think Marx was mainly against religion and saw the Jewish religion/culture as a threat to communism. I'm no authority on the subject so.....I do know it's obvious which nation lost the most soldiers/people fighting the NAZI's (Russia).

[9]

nevermind; not worth arguing the point further.

[zimmerwald1915]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

Your teacher is probably getting his misguided view from a perversion of "The Jewish Question". Having that said antisemitism was almost the norm in Marx's time. You should read some of Bakunins views concerning Jews. I think Marx was mainly against religion and saw the Jewish religion/culture as a threat to communism. I'm no authority on the subject so.....I do know it's obvious which nation lost the most soldiers/people fighting the NAZI's (Russia).

What exactly leads you to believe this? If someone is ignorant enough of Marxism to claim that it is antisemitic (leaving the question of whether the USSR as a state was antisemitic aside) they're hardly going to be familiar with a fairly obscure and early work by Marx. Also, if someone does bring up that particular book, a better argument defending it than "everyone was antisemitic to some degree" is "that book is an argument for the abolition of legal restrictions on Jewish participation in social life."

[Amphictyonis]

What exactly leads you to believe this? If someone is ignorant enough of Marxism to claim that it is antisemitic (leaving the question of whether the USSR as a state was antisemitic aside) they're hardly going to be familiar with a fairly obscure and early work by Marx. Also, if someone does bring up that particular book, a better argument defending it than "everyone was antisemitic to some degree" is "that book is an argument for the abolition of legal restrictions on Jewish participation in social life."

I sometimes assume most teachers have a well rounded education This obviously isnt a fcat.

[Sir Comradical]

Well I guess that might be part of the problem...

So what are you saying?

Buddy, you're the one who claimed that Jews in the Soviet Union were targeted with extermination in an episode even worse than in the dying days of tsarist rule and comparable to the systematic extermination of jews during the holocaust. Suffice it to say that this initial contention of yours is toweringly and laughably wrong.

You are on dangerous ground, where did Trotsky admit such a thing? I mean base reaction should not be pandered too...And even if Trotsky did, well so what?

Thats the thing, the problem is cultural backwardness from below which was in its death throes until gorbie's capitalist restoration came along.

[9]

Buddy, you're the one who claimed that Jews in the Soviet Union were targeted with extermination in an episode even worse than in the dying days of tsarist rule and comparable to the systematic extermination of jews during the holocaust.

That's funny, I don't remember saying any such thing; maybe you could show me where I made such a claim? Or you could save us both some trouble and just admit that you're lying. In reality, what I said was this:

Originally Posted by Apoi_Viitor
Of course they supported the holocaust, that's why the Soviet Union liberated concentration camps and (originally) supported the creation of the Israeli state.

and murdered jews on a scale that made the tsarist pogroms look like a disneyland vacation. but nevermind that; its not called The Holocaust™, so who carez.

Suffice it to say that this initial contention of yours is toweringly and laughably wrong.

The "Soviet" state under Stalin murdered tens of thousands of Jews on trumped up charges of 'counterrevolutionary activity'. While I don't know what the 'combined' deathtoll from all the tsarist anti-jewish pogroms is, or whether any such figure even exists, I do know that - with one exception - every single tsarist pogrom with which I'm familiar had a death toll in the double digits i.e. less than 100.

My original claim, which I quoted above (and which I stand by completely), was a claim about the amount of Jews murdered, not about levels of antisemitism in Russian society or the intentions of the murderers or any of the other strawmen that have been set up.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Anti-Semitism definitely did exist in Stalin's Russia, to a significant extent (although just how bad it was is subject to debate).

From Stalinism As A Way Of Life:

The old workers, moreover, were hostile not only toward those with rural backgrounds but also toward those who, responding to mass appeals, had come from far away to work in industry. One of the documents tells how miners jeered Komsomel members mobilized for work in the mines of the Donbass, doing everything they could to drive them out. In mine no. 1 in Shcheglovka, Komsomol members "were met with hostility. At first the miners cursed them, then they began to act openly against them. The cutting instructor deliberately sent them to work in a shaft tunnel not shored up. A collapse resulted. One [Komsomol member] was smothered, another suffered a broken leg, a third escaped with bruises. When they were going down the shaft to a tunnel at that same place, a machine operator started his cutter and a huge chunk of coal...knocked out the rib of one Komsomol member." Evidence of anti-Semitism is also reported. In mine no. 29 in Makeyevka "they terrorize Jews at every turn, threatening to kill them if they don't leave." Among mine workers, conversations of this type took place: "Jewboys came to us from Berdichev. D'ya think they're really gonna work? They go into mines wearing their coats, just like they're at a health resort...four hundred and fifty Komsomol members, all kikes, are coming to us in Budyonnovka. We'll see how well they're gonna work."

A couple of female workers [at a Leningrad factory] talk to one another.

"Those damn bastards, they won't give you time off," says a weaver to her work pal.

"But where we are ain't so bad," says a young weaver wearing a red handkerchief. "Not a single Komsomol member in our section, and when one does show up, we immediately make it hot for her." And, looking around nervously, she breaks into a shrill laugh.

"Parasites like you oughta be driven out of the factory," declares a male voice addressing the female workers.

"Don't even bother to talk to him," says an elderly weaver, turning to a coworker. "He must be one of those promotees: has a pencil sticking out of his pocket."

"Can't you tell he's a Jew?" declares a third woman laconically after taking a good look at the facial features of the stranger. "Everyone knows who the Jews stand up for."

I'd say bigotry based on other issues was stronger, though, namely bigotry against poor people who came from rural backgrounds. The government of the USSR during the Stalin period was evidently not very successful at bringing workers together...in fact in some ways it promoted bitter resentments amoungst the working class.

Anti-Semitism was definitely a problem, though, and I don't think that it was in the process of being "stamped out", especially when you look at the statements and actions of latter-day Stalinist toadies like Wladyslaw Gomulka in Poland.

(this has gotten kind of OT, though)

[HEAD ICE]

As I understand it, the statistics in the American education system indicate that elementary and high school teachers lean to the right politically, while college level faculty lean to the left.

(before I begin this post, I am not assuming this is your argument)

While college faculty may very well lean to the left, I have yet to find one professor (you can throw David Harvey, Michael Parenti, and all other "Marxists" into that lot) who argue that society's ills derive from people's material existence.

It should be remembered that the University is a complete and wholly bourgeois institution. From personal experience, this is well confirmed. Even the most solid "left" wing professors shy away from any type of class or materialist analysis. The identity politics that infects the "academic left" does not in any way enlighten anybody, in fact it poses an obstacle. This should be expected though given that the University, I repeat, is a bourgeois institution and tries to ingrain bourgeois ideology.

Even professors who claim to be "Marxist" end up peddling bourgeois thought or bourgeois solutions. David Harvey, who has become quite popular recently, his solutions to the economic crisis (btw, Harvey rejects the tendency of the rate of profit to fall) advocates Keynsian solutions, not workers revolution. While Michael Parenti talks about class, I haven't seen him advocate any solutions beyond reforming the system (I haven't even seen him call himself Marxist except saying that "some forms of reality are Marxist"). Even my favorite "Marxist" academic, Adolph Reed, though he has given thorough whoopings to the bourgeois identity politics of the "left wing professors" he too shys away from offering any solutions and he often drifts into blatant idealism in his analysis.

This is exactly how Marxists would expect this to play out. Marxists can't reform a capitalist weapon like the university; the university reforms the Marxist into a soldier of the bourgeoisie.

The university is an obstacle and a hindrance to class consciousness and must be fought against by any self-respecting revolutionary.

EDIT:

I came across this comment on Facebook about a Lady Gaga music video that proves my point that the University corrupts rather than enlightens and defends rather than challenges the bourgeoisie:

Of course people can *talk* about patriarchy and heteronormativity outside of academia, but academia is certainly how/where those things are understood as part of hegemonic systems of oppression. I mean let's be real: the gay rights movement has operated under the liberal tradition (ie, gay access to heterosexual institutions) for years, but it's only been within the last 30 years that that tradition has been aggressively challenged...particularly by academics. I don't say any of this as a defender of academic feminism/queer theory, but as someone who is actually critical of it, who sees it as privileged. I think the point here is not to defend LG's ignorance, but to understand that her (and most people's) understanding of feminism/queerness is not going to go all that far outside of the liberal tradition of access, assimilation, etc, because that has been the dominant tradition for years.

Even though I focused on feminism/queerness, I'd also apply this to how people understand anti-racism as well. I am all for criticizing dominant modes of thinking, but I also think some of the more radical ideas are less accessible and privileged.

Where the hell is my puke bag? How does any of this even begin to challenge anything at all, let alone class based society. Though people who diarrhea this type of academic "leftism" out of their mouths will say "of course we should oppose capitalism." Whatever that means.

[Sir Comradical]

That's funny, I don't remember saying any such thing; maybe you could show me where I made such a claim? Or you could save us both some trouble and just admit that you're lying. In reality, what I said was this:





The "Soviet" state under Stalin murdered tens of thousands of Jews on trumped up charges of 'counterrevolutionary activity'. While I don't know what the 'combined' deathtoll from all the tsarist anti-jewish pogroms is, or whether any such figure even exists, I do know that - with one exception - every single tsarist pogrom with which I'm familiar had a death toll in the double digits i.e. less than 100.

My original claim, which I quoted above (and which I stand by completely), was a claim about the amount of Jews murdered, not about levels of antisemitism in Russian society or the intentions of the murderers or any of the other strawmen that have been set up.

Yes, but Stalin didn't murder Jews because they were Jewish, so it's wrong to compare the USSR under Stalin to the pogroms under the ancien-regime. I'm sure the deathtolls for the various pogroms were much greater than 100 jews, you should also include the Jews murdered (for being Jews) during the civil war - that deathtoll is in the thousands.

[Lord Testicles]

You should not get mad and start yelling...then you immediately loose a debate.

I've heard differently.

+ YouTube Video

[EspirituDeAmaru]

Everything has been said here lol but i totally agree. Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitic. Marx and Lenin were Jews by birth lol. No one denies the holocaust but zionists have clearly exploited the idea to push forward with the justification of colonizing palestine. The original Jews did not support zionism, only wanted assimilation into other societies.

[No_Leaders]

Anyone here hear of the seattle general strike? IN 1919 workers went on strike and effectively shut down seattle without force. This is quoted from wikipedia.

A cooperative body made up of rank and file workers from all the striking locals was formed during the strike, called the General Strike Committee. It acted as a "virtual counter-government for the city." The committee organized to provide essential services for the people of Seattle during the work stoppage. For instance, garbage that would create a health hazard was collected, and firemen remained on duty. Exemptions to the stoppage of labor had to be passed by the Strike Committee. In general, work was not halted if doing so would endanger lives.
In other cases, workers acted on their own initiative to create new institutions. Milk wagon drivers, after being denied the right by their employers to keep certain dairies open, established a distribution system of 35 neighborhood milk stations. A system of food distribution was also established, which throughout the strike committee distributed as many as 30,000 meals each day. Strikers paid twenty five cents per meal, and the general public paid thirty five cents. Beef stew, spaghetti, bread, and coffee were offered without charge.


Army veterans created an alternative to the police in order to maintain order. A group called the "Labor War Veteran's Guard" forbade the use of force and did not carry weapons, and used "persuasion only." Peacekeeping proved unnecessary. The regular police forces made no arrests in actions related to the strike, and general arrests dropped to less than half their normal number. Major General John F. Morrison, stationed in Seattle, claimed that he had never seen "a city so quiet and orderly."
The methods of organization adopted by the striking workers bore resemblance to anarcho-syndicalism, perhaps reflecting the influence of the Industrial Workers of the World in the Pacific Northwest, though only a few striking locals were officially affiliated with the IWW.

Of course it was ended by the state calling in the national guard and police. Not to mention internal affairs mostly over union heads getting workers to go back to work. I think it's interesting how it was completely non-violent, of course at that point to defend what they had effectively done i'm sure force would have been needed. Seeing as the state did of course respond with force i.e. police, national guard. So i think revolutions can be non-violent but in order to finish the revolution all the way through, it would require violence from that point on.

[eric922]

If they were so antisemitic then how the hell did Albert Einstein become the chairman of several local branches of the CP-USA?

[Agent Ducky]

You should've gone to the school administration and filed a complaint or something. Maybe futile, but it would mess with them. Let them know you're basically being discriminated against.

[Le Socialiste]

Wow, good for you man. I'm experiencing a similar situation in my Intro to Political Science class; my professor enjoys dismissing socialism/communism as a philosophy/ideology that died out in 1991-92. Yet, for all that, he doesn't hesitate to rail against what he perceives to be the "steady creep of communism over American society".

As to your experience, I would like to second (or third, or fourth, whatever) the suggestion that you report your teacher's actions. He may be the instructor, but that doesn't give him the right to intentionally (or not, I don't know him) rewrite history. If his goal is to discredit socialism in the eyes of your peers, then he is nothing more than a propagandist posing as an educator, and as such should be dealt with (through the regular channels, or course). While I don't think you should have yelled, he did provoke you into action - and bravo for doing so! I would likely do something similar if my professor started spouting misinformation about my own beliefs and practices.

Anyway, way to stand up for your beliefs. I tip my hat to you, sir.