Marxist-Leninists support The Holocaust!

[gorillafuck]

I'm confused about how those are examples of official anti-semitism with the exception of the doctors plot. Granted that I've never even heard of those last two things.

[Toppler]

Are they going to claim next that Marxist-Leninists barbecue babies alive and then eat them because of sheer evil they have in their hearts?

[The Man]

I'm confused about how those are examples of official anti-semitism with the exception of the doctors plot. Granted that I've never even heard of those last two things.

The Night of the Murdered Poets was apparently when 15 Jews were charged for espionage and treason.


Much more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_o...Murdered_Poets

Comrade Lycanthrope

[scarletghoul]

While obviously things like the night of the murdered poets and the doctors plot were awful and antisemitic, they were nothing like as bad as the pogroms of the tsarist era. Its absurd and slanderous that anyone would compare them, equating the mass murder of 1000s of Jews with the (terrible but not comparable) persecution of some Jewish intellectuals. it really belittles the pogroms, and ignores the fact that soviet russia made great advances in protecting the jews from that kind of thing and promoting multi ethnic solidarity

[Sir Comradical]

oh come on - the purges of all the "trotskyite" traitors of the motherland and their families; the doctors' plot; night of the murdered poets; rootless cosmopolitanism....

Stalin did not persecute people because they were jewish, he persecuted people because he was suspicious and neurotic.

[Hiero]

Stalin did not persecute people because they were jewish, he persecuted people because he was suspicious and neurotic.

That's correct, though I would extend Stalin to the political structure as whole. It wasn't personally Stalin, but the whole Stalinist management. But I don't think Stalin initiated any Jewish pograms, but maybe people in power a few echelons down, such as local authorities may have been anti-semitic.

[Ocean Seal]

Haha, I love how we're simultaneously a Jewish Conspiracy and supporters of the Holocaust

Yes, for capitalists it tends to depend on what is convenient. When the capitalists are using anti-semitism as a rallying point for nationalism we are the Jewish conspiracy. When capitalists are using Judaism as a claim to support imperialist atrocities we're anti-semitic. Also capitalists tend to always equate us with the scapegoat religion at the time.

1930's Germany == Jewish conspiracy
2010 America (Glenn Beck) == Caliphate communism

[DaringMehring]

I'm not a "Marxist-Leninist" but I would have done the same thing.

It's alright to get mad & to yell, when the provocation is enough. You did fine.

[The Red Next Door]

What the fuck, we need more leftist teachers in the school or teachers, who really know there stuff.

[Robocommie]

As I understand it, the statistics in the American education system indicate that elementary and high school teachers lean to the right politically, while college level faculty lean to the left.

[Rusty Shackleford]

As I understand it, the statistics in the American education system indicate that elementary and high school teachers lean to the right politically, while college level faculty lean to the left.

so thats why everyone is so fucked up by the time they are 20.

[Toppler]

Stalin did not persecute people because they were jewish, he persecuted people because he was suspicious and neurotic.

This. Some people want to really prove that Stalin hated Jews, Ukrainians etc.
They are wrong. He just didn't give a shit about the ethnicity of the "enemies" he was killing.
Also, many MLs don't fully support Stalin and some don't support him at all.

[Robocommie]

so thats why everyone is so fucked up by the time they are 20.

Yeah, college level history education basically consists of unscrewing your head, cleaning out the bullshit, and putting in better stuffing before screwing it back on.

Actually, my favorite history professor said it best; "History in primary and secondary education is not taught to understand the past. It's taught to build nationalism." It's why we're generally brought up to believe that the Pilgrims landing at Plymouth Rock was the symbolic beginning of the American colonies, even though it was preceded by Jamestown, even though they were both preceded by St. Augustine in Florida. Jamestown had slavery, and St. Augustine was Spanish-speaking. Neither serve very well as the foundation points of an Anglo-Saxon national mythology, and that's exactly what history before the university level is meant to do - build a national mythology.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yeah, college level history education basically consists of unscrewing your head, cleaning out the bullshit, and putting in better stuffing before screwing it back on.

and then you become a democrat until you are 35-40 and then you vote for bush

[Ocean Seal]

Nice to know that you had another tendency covered. Even though I'm not an anarchist, I have your backs whenever people start with the whole anarchy is chaos crap, or use anarchy to describe Somalia.

[The Red Next Door]

Nice to know that you had another tendency covered. Even though I'm not an anarchist, I have your backs whenever people start with the whole anarchy is chaos crap, or use anarchy to describe Somalia.

That what i try to tell a classmate of mine, he said i was wrong, even know i told i was an ex-anarchist.

[9]

Stalin did not persecute people because they were jewish, he persecuted people because he was suspicious and neurotic.

I don't know whether or not the ruling caste actually persecuted people because they were Jewish, but there was certainly a willingness to exploit and utilize anti-Semitism in the persecution of the opposition.

Not that I expect the words of Trotsky to hold much weight in the eyes of a Maoist, but just in case...

Originally Posted by Trotsky

He who attentively observes Soviet life, even if only through official publications, will from time to time see bared in various parts of the country hideous bureaucratic abscesses: bribery, corruption, embezzlement, murder of persons whose existence is embarrassing to the bureaucracy, violation of women and the like. Were we to slash vertically through, we should see that every such abscess resulted from the bureaucratic stratum. Sometimes Moscow is constrained to resort to demonstration trials. In all such trials the Jews inevitably comprise a significant percentage, in part because, as we already stated, they make up a great part of the bureaucracy and are branded with its odium, partly because, impelled by the instinct for self-preservation, the leading cadre of the bureaucracy at the center and in the provinces strives to divert the indignation of the working masses from itself to the Jews. This fact was known to every critical observer in the USSR as far back as ten years ago, when Stalin regime had hardly as yet revealed its basic features.

The struggle against the Opposition was for the ruling clique a question of life and death. The program, principles, ties with the masses, everything was rooted out and cast aside because of the anxiety of the new ruling clique for its self-preservation. These people stop at nothing on order to guard their privileges and power. Recently an announcement was released to the whole world, to the effect that my youngest son, Sergei Sedov, was under indictment for plotting mass poisoning of the workers. Every normal person will conclude: people capable of preferring such a charge have reached the last degree of moral degradation. Is it possible in that case to doubt even for a moment that these same accusers are capable of fostering the anti-Semitic prejudices of the masses? Precisely in the case of my son, both these depravities are united. It is worthwhile to consider this case. From the day of their birth, my sons bore the name of their mother (Sedov). They never used any other name – neither at elementary school, nor at the university, nor in their later life. As for me, during the past thirty-four years I have borne the name of Trotsky. During the Soviet period no one ever called me by the name of my father (Bronstein), just as no one ever called Stalin Dzhugashvili. In order not to oblige my sons to change their name, I, for “citizenship” requirements, took on the name of my wife (which, according to Soviet law, is fully permissible). However, after my son, Sergei Sedov, was charged with the utterly incredible accusation of plotting to poison workers, the GPU announced in the Soviet and foreign press the “real” (!) name of my son is not Sedov but Bronstein. If these falsifiers wished to emphasize the connection of the accused with me, they would have called him Trotsky since politically the name Bronstein means nothing at all to anyone. But they were out for another game; that is, they wished to emphasize my Jewish origin and the semi-Jewish origin of my son. I paused at this episode because it has a vital and yet not at all exceptional character. The whole struggle against the Opposition is full of such episodes.

Between 1923 and 1926, when Stalin, with Zinoviev and Kamenev, was still a member of the “Troika,” the play on the strings of anti-Semitism bore a very cautious and masked character. Especially schooled orators (Stalin already then led an underhanded struggle against his associates) said that the followers of Trotsky are petty bourgeois from “small towns” without defining their race. Actually that was untrue. The percentage of Jewish intellectuals in the Opposition was in no case any greater than that in the party and in the bureaucracy. It is sufficient to name the leaders of the Opposition for the years 1923-25. I.N. Smirnov, Serebryakov, Rakovsky, Piatakov, Preobrazhensky, Krestinsky, Muralov, Beloborodov, Mrachkovsky, V. Yakovlev, Sapronov, V.M. Smirnov, Ishtchenko – fully indigenous Russians. Radek at the time was only half-sympathetic. But, as in the trials of the grafters and other scoundrels, so at the time of the expulsions of the Opposition from the party, the bureaucracy purposely emphasized the names of Jewish members of casual and secondary importance. This was quite openly discussed in the party, and, back in 1925, the Opposition saw in this situation the unmistakable symptom of the decay of the ruling clique.

After Zinoviev and Kamanev joined the Opposition the situation changed radically for the worse. At this point there opened wide a perfect chance to say to the workers that at the head of the Opposition stand three “dissatisfied Jewish intellectuals.” Under the direction of Stalin, Uglanov in Moscow and Kirov in Leningrad carried through this line systematically and almost fully in the open. In order the more sharply to demonstrate to the workers the differences between the “old” course and the “new,” the Jews, even when unreservedly devoted to the general line, were removed from responsible party and Soviet posts. Not only in the country but even in the Moscow factories the baiting of the Opposition back in 1926 often assumed a thoroughly obvious anti-Semitic character. Many agitators spoke brazenly: “The Jews are rioting.” I received hundreds of letters deploring the anti-Semitic methods in the struggle with the Opposition. At one of the sessions of the Politburo I wrote Bukharin a note: “You cannot help knowing that even in Moscow in the struggle with the Opposition, methods of Black Hundred demagogues (anti-Semitism, etc.) are utilized.” Bukharin answered me evasively on that same piece of paper: “Individual instances, of course, are possible.” I again wrote: “I have in mind not individual instances but a systematic agitation among the party secretaries at large Moscow enterprises. Will you agree to come with me to investigate an example of this at the factory ’Skorokhod’ (I know a number of other such examples).” Bukharin answered, “All right, we can go.” In vain I tried to make him carry out the promise. Stalin most categorically forbade him to do so. In the months of preparations for the expulsions of the Opposition from the party, the arrests, the exiles (in the second half of 1927), the anti-Semitic agitation assumed a thoroughly unbridled character. The slogan, “Beat the Opposition,” often took on the complexion of the old slogan “Beat the Jews and save Russia.” The matter went so far that Stalin was constrained to come out with a printed statement which declared: “We fight against Trotsky, Zinoviev and Kamenev not because they are Jews but because they are Oppositionists,” etc. To every politically thinking person it was completely clear that this consciously equivocal declaration, directed against “excesses” of anti-Semitism, did at the same time with complete premeditation nourish it. “Do not forget that the leaders of the Opposition are – Jews.” That was the meaning of the statement of Stalin, published in all Soviet journals.

When the Opposition, to meet the repressions, proceeded with a more decisive and open struggle, Stalin, in the form of a very significant “jest”, told Piatakov and Preobrazhensky: “You at the least are fighting against the C.E., openly brandishing your axes. That proves your ’orthodox’ action. Trotsky works slyly and not with a hatchet.” Preobrazhensky and Piatakov related this conversation to me with strong revulsion. Dozens of times Stalin attempted to counterpose the “orthodox” core of the Opposition to me.

The well known German radical journalist, the former editor of Aktion, Franz Pfemfert, at present in exile, wrote me in August 1936:

“Perhaps you remember that several years ago in Aktion I declared that many actions of Stalin can be explained by his anti-Semitic tendencies. The fact that in this monstrous trial he, through Tass, managed to ‘correct’ the names of Zinoviev and Kamenev represents, by itself, a gesture in typical Streicher style. In this manner Stalin gave the ‘Go’ sign to all anti-Semitic, unscrupulous elements.”

In fact the names, Zinoviev and Kamenev, it would seem, are more famous than the names of Radomislyski and Rozenfeld. What other motives could Stalin have had to make known the “real” names of his victims, except to play with anti-Semitic moods? Such an act, and without the slightest legal justification, was, as we have seen, likewise committed over the name of my son. But, undoubtedly, the most astonishing thing is the fact that all four “terrorists” allegedly sent by me from abroad turned out to be Jews and – at the same time – agents of the anti-Semitic Gestapo! Inasmuch as I have ever actually seen any of these unfortunates, it is clear that the GPU deliberately selected them because of their racial origin. And the GPU does not function by virtue of its own inspiration!

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trot...7/02/therm.htm

[Thirsty Crow]

Your thoughts on this ridiculous assumption?

Old trick: invoke the historical horrors of anti-semitism when faced with a criticism of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.
A classic move. Your reaction paints a nice picture of its aim: to induce a strong emotional response, most obviously destined to shut the critic up.

[Sir Comradical]

I don't know whether or not the ruling caste actually persecuted people because they were Jewish, but there was certainly a willingness to exploit and utilize anti-Semitism in the persecution of the opposition.

Not that I expect the words of Trotsky to hold much weight in the eyes of a Maoist, but just in case...

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trot...7/02/therm.htm

I have yet to see any such Stalinist propaganda until now, so lets have a look.

"Stalin stages trials which accuse the Trotskyists of plotting to poison workers, then it is not difficult to imagine to what foul depths the bureaucracy can resort in some Ukrainian or central Asiatic hovel!"

^ I suspect this refers to the anti-semitic charge that jews poison wells, right? However even Trotsky admits that the over-representation of Jews in the urban-bureaucracy may have increased the suspicions of the culturally backward workers and peasants who already despised the urban-bureaucracy to begin with.

[LordAcheron]

Did he forget that the Soviets despised the nazis or something? I mean he's a history teacher for fucks sake