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Why the proletarian revolution can't be spontaneus?
According to the Manifesto, the socialist revolution got to be done by a revolutionary movement which must be conscious of its specific goals of changing the capitalist system -unlike precedent historic changes of system. Where can it be found more historic-materialist elaboration about this?
¡Patria socialista o muerte, venceremos!
Well the actual Revolt can be spontaneus and any spontaneus uprising should be supported, its just that if it doesnt take a direction after the overthrowing of the leadership, the risk is that the revolution will get lost like in France may 68 where the workers and students managed to actually overthrow the system just to let it come back.
"You know what capitalism is? Getting fucked!" - Tony Montana, Scarface.
People don't spontaneously act in a coordinated, organized, disciplined fashion - and people who are highly coordinated and highly disciplined wield power far more effectively than those who do not - they control those who are not organized and disciplined. A tiny military unit can disperse a massive mob. This is not a class thing, it is a tactics thing - and when one's enemies use disciplined organization and we do not, we will lose.
As you can see from what is happening in Egypt, for example, without an organisation of some sort, the initiative will always pass to the ruling class -- since they are organised.
Because people are so enslaved by their jobs that they don't even have time to think and do something on their own. They need support, they need to know that others workers are with them and they need objectives. Some people aren't willing to risk the very little they have for something they don't know.
I don't think we've seen the end of peoples rule in Egypt though, and nobody is to say that organization always breeds success. When you have tactics, you have those who know how to exploit those tactics.
No one said organisation always breeds success, but one thing is for sure: lack of organisation always breeds failure, and that is because the ruling class are always organised, and, if allowed to, will seize back the initiative.
And sure, the Egyptian revolt is not yet finished, but it will be unless the people organise and take on the power of the state -- which is still organised.
As is the international ruling class -- a people's/workers' state will have to challenge property and exploitation relations and that will invite ideological and military intervention from abroad, lest such ideas spread and threaten the metropolitan areas.
When we socialists think of Spontaneous, we think of chaos, disorder and disorganization. That sort of Spontaneity doesn't exist. By Spontaneous what is meant that it takes place outside the traditional norm.
Every action takes places in a definite organized form. The May 68 events are often said to be "spontaneous" - truth be told, the students organized into Workers-Student Committees, the workers into Wildcat Strike Committees. These are organisations which we're given life as a direct result of the workers' initiatives. The defenders of the so called "spontaneity" relish this sort of organization as the means for which to really the turn the table against Capitalism.
Make no mistake: The organization of the working class must be both economic and political. The capitalist is organized upon both lines. You must attack him on both.
Daniel De Leon
The most important word in the language of the working class is solidarity.
Harry Bridges
My Blog:
http://autonomousworkers.wordpress.com/
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
I'm in a Gramsci mode of late so I'll quote the man and note that "behind spontaneity is presupposed pure mechanicalism". That is, that the conception of revolution as 'spontaneously' breaking out and seizing power, without the presence of a political vehicle for the proletariat, is determinism of the crassest order. It denies, or at least downplays, the role of human agency in destroying the old order and creating the new
March at the head of the ideas of your century and those ideas will follow and sustain you. March behind them and they will drag you along. March against them and they will overthrow you.
Napoleon III
depends what you mean, plenty of disciplined cops have been routed by mobs, its a matter of applying certain tactics to situations. disciplined organizational structures tend to be rigid, with more fluidity a "disorganized" group can overtake them
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
The issue of spontaneity for me is unresolved. Spontaneous can mean a lot of things, and it does not necessarily translate to organized. Couldn't an organization (or a number of them) act spontaneously?
AKA El Vagoneta
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http://rananets.blogspot.com/ <---Radical News Aggregator beta
The Manifesto does not say that. In fact, the point of the 'ten planks' is precisely that it isn't.
"Communists know only too well that all conspiracies are not only useless, but even harmful. They know all too well that revolutions are not made intentionally and arbitrarily, but that, everywhere and always, they have been the necessary consequence of conditions which were wholly independent of the will and direction of individual parties and entire classes."
It's pretty far-fetched to believe that the first proper revolt during Mubaraks 30 years in charge was going to bring about a society which has disposed of the ruling class, whether it be organised or not. What we are seeing in the Arab world is stepping stones, with people gaining vitial information and skills for future battles against State and Capital. The shattering of the illusion of invulnerability of the enemy is the first task of any radical movement, just like Millbank in the UK.
"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." - Kurt Vonnegut
i know it's trite to just reply with a quote but this seemed relevant.
“It is not true that people stop pursuing dreams because they grow old, they grow old because they stop pursuing dreams.” - Gabriel Garcia Marquez
"What forces can bring the national question to a successful conclusion? Only the working class can do so." - Ta Power
SUCCESSFUL revolutions cannot be spontaneous. They must be engineered. Name one successful revolution that was entirely spontaneous.
Hungary 1956. The Workers' broke up from factories into their own Workers' Councils took control of the means of production and changed the nation. It took a Soviet Invasion to put down the new order.
Make no mistake: The organization of the working class must be both economic and political. The capitalist is organized upon both lines. You must attack him on both.
Daniel De Leon
The most important word in the language of the working class is solidarity.
Harry Bridges
My Blog:
http://autonomousworkers.wordpress.com/
But they LOST. Name one that WON>
Does that count as successful, then, or do we all have dreams for a short-lived revolutionary period, after which loads of us get killed and still more flee the country to avoid similar treatment?
Successful is when the revolution is able to successfully defend itself against counterrevolution. In Hungary, the revolt was crushed beneath the caterpillar tracks of counterrevolution, before it could take root and flower.
