GLBT legal issues

[Nickademus]

we've talked about religion, we've definately discussed politics. i'm wondering what you all think of sexual orientation. are we all extremely tolerant here or are there some closeted homophobics?

i'm just curious for example whether you thing homosexual couples should have the rights to a) get legally married, B) adopt children

(don't worry redcelt i think i know your answer to both )

[Jurhael]

They should have every single RIGHT that heterosexual couples enjoy.

[Moskitto]

I don't care about sexual orientation and I find that right-wingers have arguements that are pretty easy to destroy concerning it.

Actually my famous quote on this subject is "As a communist I believe all groups are equal whatever age, sex, religion, sexual orientation or race"

[CPK]

well...i personally don't care if they are gay or whatever.
as long as they don't affect me in anyway. then why bother? but with kids growing up in a homsexual enviroment...
i don't know because obviously i wasn't never brought up that way.

[Jurhael]

Kids growing up in "homosexual environments" (I'm assuming you mean same sexed couples) do not turn out any more differently than kids in "heterosexual environments".

[CPK]

do you have proof?
if yes then i would like to see it.

[Markxs]

i think the mother or father is perfectly replacable just becasue of women and men dont differ in mental stuff that isnt learned.

[CPK]

in some cases yes.

[Chancho]

Homosexuality is one part of the question - and it doesn't even register on my consciousness as an issue.

Another part is legal rights - obviously, human rights and civil rights should be accorded to all people without any distinctions by definition.

When you bring up adoption you are raising an entirely different issue. The key is the motivation behind ANYONE wanting to adopt. If it is to fulfil some emotional vacuum (as is normally the case), the potential adoptive parent is not fit to adopt. The child must come first - there must be an altruistic desire to nurture and provide for the child. Otherwise, forget it.

As far as homosexual couples having children through pregnancy, there are two very important issues. In fact, this is seen in hetero situations too but seems to be highlighted as a problem in gay situations. That is, the use of a known sperm donor and their role in the child's life and the use of an unknown sperm donor.

Just 2 nights ago I watched a documentary on lesbian couples with children and the thing that disturbed me was the decision that they had all made (3 couples) flat out not to permit the 'father' to have anything to do with the child.

They militantly went through the issues as they saw them - we made this decision, it is under our control - it is our life - he's just a sperm donor, not a father - he has no rights etc. I have heard these views expressed by people in that situaion in other contexts and it seems to be a common thought.

The complete absence of any consideration whatsoever for the rights of the child is deeply disturbing and ethically indefensible. The reality is that the 'sperm donor' is the 'father' whether the parents see it that way or not. Any decision as to whether that person should be involved in the child's life must be made by the child, subject to what the father wants. I believe if this attitude is present, it reveals the selfish motivation of the parents - merely to create the family they crave - that is not adequate motivation for having children. If you cannot put the child's interests first, you should not become a parent.

The same arguments apply to the rights of the father - and it is irrelevant if he originally thought he would be ok not having a role and subsequently changes his mind. That is not an argument at all against permitting him his natural rights. But then, the issue of the way fathers are marginalised generally is another topic on its own.

The other issue of anonymous sperm donors is the most extreme example of complete disregard for the rights of the child. It is fundamental to human existence to seek out one's identity and have a firm sense of origins. Adopted people who are able to discover who their biological relatives are still take many years to orient their sense of identity.

To inflict the mental and emotional torture onto a child of never being able to know even their genetic origins is to deprive the child of a fundamental human right that most people take for granted - your sense of yourself within the network of humanity and your personal identity. So you see, these last issues are highlighted by gay couples but are really not 'gay issues'.

(Edited by Chancho at 1:37 am on Oct. 3, 2001)

[Jurhael]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2...gayparents.html

Try these as well:
http://www.lesbian.org/lesbian-moms/articles.html

http://www.times10.org/sue1298.htm

Guess that'll do.

Chancho, you're going to have dipshits everywhere. No group is immune to that. heh

[Chancho]

My point really was to show that the issues must be very clearly divided. What you think is a gay issue may not be a gay issue at all.

There are certain issues which are legitimate gay issues - such as legal rights.

Adoption and sperm donation, however, are NOT gay issues - these are issues concerning the rights of the child. To make them gay issues is to place the child's rights beneath other concerns.

The question of whether or not gay people can make good parents is a totally separate question - of course they can! Sexual orientation is irrelevant! At the risk of sounding cliched - love and respect are the only criteria.

But ALL people who seek to adopt or use sperm donation must examine their motivation and think of the child first - gay, straight or somewhere in between.

[Jurhael]

Yea, you're right about that. It's pretty easy to forget that.

I myself tend to be sympathetic with adoption, but not so with artificual insemination. That's true will ALL orientations, btw.

[CPK]

good point chancho.
and i'm still wondering if you have any proof of kids living a-ok with gay parents.

[pce]

CPK, i saw a documentary (probably a different one than chancho's) were they spoke with gay/lesbian parents and their children. the children were perfectly happy and so were their parents. the completely supported each other - parents and children.

i believe, if i remember correctly, two of the couples had adopted, and the other couple each had children from a previous heterosexual marriage. these children were in touch with their previous parents as well. the children of each couple ranged in age from, i think, about 5 to 18 or 17. everyone was okay with everything.

[CPK]

well that's proof. that's not all the couples though.
is it?

[pce]

well, no family is perfect, regardless of sexual orientation. it is proof enough that with responsible parents and children it is perfectly possible to have a balanced family. this is also true with a heterosexual couple's family. every homosexual family won't be perfect just as every heterosexual family won't be.

[Jurhael]

I could have sworn I posted articles about this...but no matter, PCE pretty much nailed it for me. heeh

[RedCeltic]

There are many qualifications one must go through in order to adopt a child in the United States. One must prove that they are economicly stable, a sound stable enviroment, food clothing shelter love and care. And then they have to be put on a list that seems to last forever... years in fact for some. ( unless your rich and famous like Rosie O'Donnal)

All the while, children are growing up in forster homes, not perment ones... for we did away with that... so they are jossled from one home to another... and to group homes. All the while, getting older, more institutialized, and abused. And the older you are, and more color you have, the less likely you are to be adopted.

So why if a same sex couple, that meets all these requirements, and willing to go through all the trouble, interviews, back ground checks, paperwork... and wait for years sometimes... why should they be rejected as potential adoptive parents? Because they are gay?

I do know someone who was partly raised by gay parents. Her father realized he was gay later in life... her mother was unfit, a drug addict turned to prostitution, and robbery. So her father who happened to be gay raised her... but to call it a 'Homosexual' enviorment... sounds like she was being raised in some sort of gay sex house with naked men running around. She would discribe her enviroment as being quite normal.. growing up in an average middle class home, and going to a good school... Did he make her gay? No.. she's happily married with two kids.

Is it better for a child to be driven from pillar to post, never knowing a real home? Only because we fear some of this homosexuality may rub off on someone?

[CPK]

you go overboard sometimes reddy
i didn't say it was wrong. i just wondered how the kids were doing. i didn't mean "homosexual enviroment" to be all gay stuff. just gay parents.
ok, i'll put it this way. i really don't care if you are gay. just don't get in my way. in other words, as long as homosexuals don't bother me. i won't interfere.
you understand?

[Nickademus]

Quote: from CPK on 3:18 am on Oct. 3, 2001
good point chancho.
and i'm still wondering if you have any proof of kids living a-ok with gay parents.

a good friend of mine was raised by her lesbian and is as normal as the rest of us