FUCK AMERICA

[antigovernment]

Many of us were personally hurt beause of the inocent lives lost on 9-11, but some of us, perhaps the very few, were hurt no differently than the millions of lives we constantly see taken by this government, throughout Iraq, Guatamala, Chili, Cambodia, Panama, El Salvador, Argentina . etc..

I think it SHOULD effect someone on a personal level just as much as knowing (if they know) their country has delibartly targeted and killed 1.5 million inocent people in Iraq, about half, 500,000 which are children..... However, it doesn't effect them on the same personal level.. Why? These people across seas are human beings too. And your country is killing them, deliberatly. Literarly, you're killing them. This is genocide.

Many american's seem to think that if 6,000 lives here are taken by a terrorist (that the U.S created by the way), that it's "absolute payback time with nukes and no prisoners" ... or, "now is the time to mourn"...

How come I didn't see all this mourn, - "they killed so many people how sad" - when this government was dropping bombs over bagdad. Or when oil corporations murdered people off their lands in Nigera, forced U'Wa off their sacred lands in columbia. Killed millions of people all throughout this world. I didn't see all of this world mourn going on. I didn't see all of this, "remembering the victoms" on televison. For corporate america was too busy talking about Hilary's favorite color. I didn't see people try to do anything about it. It was only us, those who got out in the streets and tried to speak the truth, but were constantly shot at with rubber bullets, beaten with batons and thrown in jail by the police for doing so.

Now all the sudden I see so many people acting as if america is the only fucking thing that exists in this world. As if american lives are more valuable than everyone else's.

This is the effect of indoctrination. This is the effect of fear, confusion, manipulation and deception. People mislead, misguided, therfor sooner or later become detached from peoples feelings elsewhere, thereby not giving a flying fuck about what's happening to the Iraqi mothers who have to watch her children die, because you're too busy watching your sit-coms. Not giving a fuck about the children digging through the rubble remains of their houses looking for their parents, while we dig through our credit card pockets, pulling out our "our american dream" with SUV's and lottery tickets...

This is Americanism.

Americanism is a self-centered culture. A culture that's literaly manufactured to serve the interests of capitalism. To serve the interests of the state, to serve the intersts of those who sit at the very top, point the finger, stroke the pens, and oppress the bottom.

We are fucking servents.

With nothing but sarcasim in our pockets, and we're still waiting. Waiting for something worth waiting for. This has caused us to loose sense of direction. We have lost sense of reality. We have lost everything we thought we supposedly had.

In reality, we really had nothing, america gave us absolutly nothing except for an intaingible form of pride and ignorance, which could not be bought in a mall, nor over a television informational, because it didn't have to.

It's already bought us.

The key out of this prison is called education. With that will come the ability to wake up and fight the real enemy.

(Edited by antigovernment at 12:55 pm on Sep. 30, 2001)

[Chief Rebel Angel]

not to forget the killings that happen in palestine, east timor, etc... education is definetly the solution, but how r u going to educate a person who considers f.r.i.e.n.d.s as his/her bible?

[vox]

Yep, that sums it up pretty nicely.

What we're seeing is the face of nationalism, I think. The dead in Iraq, the people still suffering in Viet Nam from the effects of chemical warfare, the Nigerians killed for the benefit of oil companies don't even register a blip on the radar screen of the US news media.

Tragedy is all around us.

There can be no defense of terrorism, here or anywhere else. Let's hope that people understand that now. If they don't, then we can add another tragedy to the list.

vox

[Ernestito]

Dont forget about the killings in South America, dont forget about the Africans...
I am with you Antigovernment.

[Moskitto]

Remember the 78 million people who have died in the capitalist killing fields since 1970.

[Che Vive]

it seems that americans have been the cause of death of ppl from almost every nationality...it leaves no room for sympathy towards them does it!!??

[DaNatural]

anti government great post man, ive been feeling this way since this has happened, the only reason this is hyped up is cus its america and because it was a in your face type of attack. this is nothing compared to what usa has dont to caribeans, africa, cuba, latin america mexico, parts of asia, and hell even to their own people.america continually violates international law, on the grouds that the coutries that they cripple are a theat to national security, one good case is even in afghanistan where they have regulations on the country because the taliban holds bin laden, so what do they do, they impose restrictionsthat hurt the people who are already suffering. usa acts outside of all universa law, its them and the rest of us basically. im reading a book by chomsky called profit over people and he explains what we are living in perfectly. neoliberalism, top down democracy. where the corporate business world controls the politicians and he politicians insure that the those on top are protected and continue to profit fom the misery of the regular joes. unreal,fuck america!

[Chief Rebel Angel]

Che Vive - if u had a relative who was in the WTC that day, would u still feel the same?

however, i saw an interview with bin laden made in 1998, he said that even the american tax-paying-man is a target because he is supporting what his government is doing thru paying the taxes. i never thought of it that way. i'm not saying that its an excuse for killing some 6000 lives (IF he was the one who did it, that is), but its a good arguement he proposes.

[reagan lives]

Iraq, Guatemala, Chile, Cambodia, Panama, El Salvador, Argentina, Palestine, East Timor.

Do you believe that less people would die in these areas if we were not involved in them? Would their quality of life improve if we became isolationists?

[Chief Rebel Angel]

i will only talk about what i know about.. in iraq i believe that yes, less people will die if america/uk backed off, because they took it too far.. in palestine, people r going to die fighting anyway, but it will be fighting one enemy instead of two...

[vox]

Guatemala:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Gua...atemala_KH.html

Chile:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Chile_KH.html

Cambodia:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Cam...ambodia_KH.html

Iraq:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Iraq_KH.html

El Salvador:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/ElS...alvador_KH.html

East Timor:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Eas...stTimor_KH.html

And don't forget the related history of Indonesia:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Ind...uned_WBlum.html

And more about Indonesia:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Ind...nesia65_KH.html

The USA seems to leave a trail of blood everywhere it goes. To answer your question, yes, I believe that fewer people would have died in many of these areas. Destabilizing democratically elected governments, something the USA does frequently, does not lead to peace but to war, as history shows us very plainly.

However, your choices of the type of intervention we've undertaken in the past, which one can only conclude that you support by the phrasing of your question, and isolationism is dishonest. Someone as intellectually profound as you claim to be should recognize this. It's the fallacy of the excluded middle, and quite common, especially from the right. You offer two choices as if they are the only two, which is not, of course, accurate. It's a way of limiting the scope of a discussion to suit the questioner's purpose. I have to believe, given your self-proclaimed intellectual prowess, that you knew that and did it purposely. Right?

vox

(Edited by vox at 8:08 pm on Sep. 30, 2001)

[AgustoSandino]

You know, I think I have to agree, about Americans killing people senselessly and needlessly. Take me for example, last year I went to Sierra Leone, buying diamonds from warlords to ship to my necklace factories in Cambodia. Anyway, you should've seen the trail of blood i left, how embarrassing.

[vox]

Someone doesn't seem to understand the difference between US foreign policy and individual citizens. I can see why you're embarrassed.

Oh, and nice content, too.

vox

[reagan lives]

Another reliable and unbiased source. Kudos to you, vox. It's like dealing with a child. If you want me to spend my valuable time reading William Blum, I suggest that you go and pick up a copy of PJ O'Rourke's "All the Troubles in the World."

Gee, vox, I didn't realize that there are choices other than military intervention and isolationism (wonderful sentence structure too, by the way). Thank you ever so much for pointing that out. One thing though...if those choices actually solved anything, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Unless you really believe that Americans are just inherently evil and kill even when there are viable alternatives. What's it like up there in the clouds, vox?

[vox]

Reagan once again writes a post and says nothing. Far from saying the links I left were wrong, he tells me to read something by P.J. O'Rourke, not a reknowned political thinker or a journalist, but a comedy writer. I am the one in the clouds?

By the way, you would do well to at least have a look at Blum's book Killing Hope, for you should at least be familiar with it before you attempt to disparage it as a source. You might even want to take a look at the Notes, for it is a very well-documented book. That, apparently, doesn't matter to right-wingers, though, for they are not known for letting the facts get in the way of a good opinion.

The sentence structure was fine, as a clause is perfectly acceptable. I'm sorry you didn't understand.

But here's the only interesting thing about your post:

"One thing though...if those choices actually solved anything, we wouldn't be having this discussion."

So that's that, then. Reagan is now on record as saying that we had to "solve" the problem of democratically elected governments in other countries. Perhaps he agrees with Kissinger, who said, "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist because of the irresponsibility of its own people."

That the US, as opposed to Americans, reject peace when it's a viable alternative isn't in question, of course. Again, we know this to be the case. It happened in Iraq in the Nineties and Japan in the Forties.

vox

[pce]

reagan lives brings up a good point (and this is something i've alluded to before)

neither side will ever listen to each other, even if each side presents proof. leftist will show their proof and it will be dismissed as biased. right-wingers will show their proof and it will be dismissed as biased.

it doesn't matter how well each side's proof is documented, the other side will always say, it is showing biased information. it is only showing the bad and not the good, or vice versa. afterall, is there such a thing as total objectivity?

we will never get anything accomplished like this, we will always fight and never agree.

how do we as humans, overcome this? (and please, no bias in answers either...)
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p.s. - reagan lives, the personal blows ala "(wonderful sentence structure too, by the way)" don't help the matter, and waist time

p.s.s. - isn't it interesting that in the english language a "left-winger" is called a "leftist," but a "right-winger" can't be called a "rightist?" - just an off topic note there...

[vox]

pce,

Yes, there are some things we know.

We know, for instance, the contents of declassified documents, which is from where much of this information comes. These things aren't made up, they are there, in black and white, for all to see.

We know about the use of the CIA to destabalize and overthrow foreign governments. The information is out there for those who take the time to read it.

We know about US government importing drugs. This isn't conjecture, this has been proven.

So, if you dismiss all evidence as being corrupted, then you are right, and we will never get anywhere.

vox

[reagan lives]

PJ O'Rourke is a comedy writer. Yeah. Who do you think will succeed him as the international affairs editor of Rolling Stone...maybe Louis Anderson?

pce- I don't dismiss proof. I do dismiss op-ed pieces that were derived from internet sites with a, shall we say, questionable degree of impartiality. I don't care if the editorialist cites other editorials. I have yet to see vox provide a link to any of the "declassified documents" that he claims to have taken the time to read. Then again, I have yet to see vox do much but post links to tangential op-ed pieces. I suppose it's easier than thinking. On that note, as far as personal blows go, I'll remind you that I only return hostility for hostility. You'll notice that I'm not taking any pot shots at anyone else here.

Back to the point...are we going to talk about the present, or events that occured during the Cold War? The argument over whether our support of regimes that, shall we say, didn't represent certain ideals was justified or not in the context of the battle against Communism is one for another thread. The reality of the situation now is that there are a lot of fucking fascists in power who maintain their power at the great expense of their people. Did we support, or even install some of these fascists? Hell yes. But pointing the finger at the last generation doesn't get us anywhere. I did read your links, vox. The section on Iraq is the only excerpt that recounts post-Cold War events (don't be fooled by the header on the El Salvador piece).

Talk about the past until you're blue in the face. I'd prefer to deal with present reality. So, back to my original question: if we left these nations alone now, do you honestly believe that people would stop dying?

[pce]

reagan lives, i don't see how you can ask that question without looking at the past. if we forget about the past then, i would say you are right, people wouldn't stop dying (except in iraq probably). but why would they still be dying? because of the stuff we did in the past.

do we need to still be there? yes. should we act in the same manner that got those people where they now are? no. we should help them. truly help them. not just the ones that can help us back, but all the ones that need help. afterall, we helped get them screwed in the first place, and even if we didn't, a country that claims to be the symbol of democracy and freedom should try to live up to its name as much as possible.

sorry if my sentence structure isn't great

[Fidel Castro Ruz]

the world could be 1000000000 times better if Columbus sailed not to america but to india...
americans do a lot of fuckin' things
1st they speak about democracy and freedom and cabalize such coutries as Cuba and Iraq...embargo on Pakistan was coz they've tested nuclear weapons,but when americans did the same noone told that USA must be under embargo...i don't know how u really call that but Reagan(US pres.before Bush) called USSR (in free translation) the EVIL EMPIRE...but i know that USSR wasn't an EVIL EMPIRE...terrorism was born with help of USA...and this is coz they wanted to destroy USSR...and they really did it,but they've forgot about Afghanistan and other Arabian coutries that were prosoviet before
2nd thats only american fault that about 1/3 of the world suffer now...thats Latin America, Africa, PostSoviet countries,some asian and arabian countries...there is one more thing i can say...american nation is rotten(Soviet ministry of propaganda was right sayin' it)
yes 2 world wars were started by Germany,but lets remember other wars USA and USSR have started
so USSR had started only 1 real war in Afghanisthan
and USA...Korea(russian pilots fought with yankees)
Vietnam(the same)Israel-Egypt...and many many others
damn i've forgot what i wanted to say.......................
americans sponsor only those leaders that are 6s(the same as "pets")in their hands...and thats not democracy...thats dermocracy,this sux...FUCK NATO!FUCK USA!VIVA CUBA!VIVA FIDEL!