Once again, proof that the US is FAR left of the establishment

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I'm glad most americans see raising taxes on the absurdly wealthy as a better alernative to spending cuts. But hey, the people who went out to vote and decided what govt we have definitely decided on the ultra pro-business party (as opposed to the slightly less ultra pro-business party lol). Like bud said many americans may support not cutting taxes for billionaires but that's who was elected (not that the process is fair).

This poll doesn't seem especially bad though. Some are ridiculous.

Should people go hungry at night?
Should children die of curable diseases?
Should everyone be given a good education?
Should everyone be able to retire comfortably at 40?

Everybody would agree with all of those things but getting people to try and achieve it en masse is unattainable at the moment.

[RGacky3]

That seems to be more your problem than mine.

Not really, I agree with the polls and statistics.

So who care about the people that don't vote? Actually, Fuck them. And if they can't even vote--they certainly wont revolt. Forget them.

THey don't not vote because they are lazy, its because they tried voting, and it was just was just as bad as the republicans bein in charge, why should they vote? Voting is just a ceremony for which puppet of the corporate world is in charge.

I'd say they are the smarter ones.

America can be anything it wants to be--and it doesn't choose whatever you represent when the rubber meets the road. And that's all that counts.

Not through the representative system we have now it can't, why don't we have single payer healthcare?

Like all your posts--charming in their way, but in reality--who cares?

Clearly you don't, which makes me wonder, why the hell are you still here?

[ComradeMan]

Nope. A sample of that size is completely sound and works just fine. Take a statistics class or something (especially if you're in college and need easy Math credits.

Sorry, but I don't really like opinion polls, I remember a professor of mathematics warning us about these kinds of statistics etc. I am not saying they don't have their use, but to say they are "proof" of something is a different matter.

A random sample of about 1000 is generally acceptable but....

Where was this "random" sample taken? Vanity Fair readers? In the street? 60 Minutes viewers- online? What was the sample? How random was the random sample?

What were the questions? Were they loaded type questions- or balanced ones?

• Should people go hungry at night?
• Should children die of curable diseases?
• Should everyone be given a good education?
• Should everyone be able to retire comfortably at 40?

Who wouldn't answer yes/no to those types of questions? I suppose even KKK members might probably answer these "progressively".

Of course there is also the danger of the bias of response too.

When it comes to political matters I have seen so many of these polls come and go and yet when it came to election day/voting the results did not correspond.

[¿Que?]

Sorry, but I don't really like opinion polls, I remember a professor of mathematics warning us about these kinds of statistics etc. I am not saying they don't have their use, but to say they are "proof" of something is a different matter.

You're right, it's not proof. It's evidence.

A random sample of about 1000 is generally acceptable but....

Where was this "random" sample taken? Vanity Fair readers? In the street? 60 Minutes viewers- online? What was the sample? How random was the random sample?

What were the questions? Were they loaded type questions- or balanced ones?

• Should people go hungry at night?
• Should children die of curable diseases?
• Should everyone be given a good education?
• Should everyone be able to retire comfortably at 40?

Who wouldn't answer yes/no to those types of questions? I suppose even KKK members might probably answer these "progressively".

Of course there is also the danger of the bias of response too.

When it comes to political matters I have seen so many of these polls come and go and yet when it came to election day/voting the results did not correspond.

Nothing to argue here. Need to look at the actual poll, not some article about it. We all know the news sources are notorious for misrepresenting scientific studies. And the fact that it is Vanity Fair/60 minutes doesn't bode well for the actual poll either. These are not research centers.

In any case, it seems ComradeMan is making a good case to be skeptical.

[RGacky3]

Heres the origional poll

NOTE: This poll was conducted by telephone November 29–December 2, 2010, at the CBS News interviewing facility among a random sample of 1,137 adults nationwide. Some low-percentage answer choices have been omitted.

Your right its evidence, but taking along with tons and tons of other policy polls that are evidence for the US being far left of the estabilishment, you can say with pretty good certinty that the US public is far left of the establishment.

[Bud Struggle]

Here are some of the questions:

Which one of these fantasy worlds
would you most like to visit?

The N.F.L. may not play next season, because
team owners and players have not agreed on a
new collective-bargaining agreement.
What would an N.F.L. lockout mean to you?

Researchers are claiming that someday
it may be possible to have a terrible memory
wiped from your mind. Is there a moment
in your life that you would want removed from
your thoughts forever, or would you want
to keep all your memories no matter what?

Which one of these fashion items would you
most like to see fall out of style for good?

Our country is trillions of dollars in
debt, and the number increases every day.
Which denomination comes after a trillion?

Which statement best describes your thoughts
about Hollywood’s latest movies?

There are, I think 9 questions in total. (I posted them slightly out of order.)

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2...?currentPage=1

Am I missing something here--Gack was this the right poll?

[RGacky3]

Yup, it was'nt a purely political poll.

But, if the nature of the poll throws you off (I don't know why it would, consiering its a random sample). I can find you tons of other polls.

Do you have any?

[Bud Struggle]

Yup, it was'nt a purely political poll.

But, if the nature of the poll throws you off (I don't know why it would, consiering its a random sample). I can find you tons of other polls.

Do you have any?

Not on you case Gack, I guess tend to be a bit more pragmatic about things than you. Both in the meaning of polls as opposed to elections and as the the meaning of terms like "Communism."

[ComradeMan]

Yup, it was'nt a purely political poll.

But, if the nature of the poll throws you off (I don't know why it would, consiering its a random sample). I can find you tons of other polls.

Do you have any?

The problem is with these polls in the first place. I am not trying to undermine the value of statistics here but don't forget the old saying about "lies, damned lies and then statistics".

[Manic Impressive]

It's strange most Americans I know are considerably further left of the democrats that includes some family I've got in Arizona and many Americans I met while in Asia. It kind of reminds me of what comedian Rich Hall said about American peoples political view point "in America Democrats are people who have seen the sea"

[Rooster]

I wouldn't say that taxing the rich more is revolutionary. It's just capitalism with a happy face and it won't solve any of the underlying problems.

[RGacky3]

Not on you case Gack, I guess tend to be a bit more pragmatic about things than you. Both in the meaning of polls as opposed to elections and as the the meaning of terms like "Communism."

Pragmatic is'nt the word I would use, ignorant is more like it.

You just dismiss facts unless they agree with you, which makes you willfully ignorant.

You define socialism in a way that suits you, ignoring how it is defined by ... socialists, and every one else.
You ignore polls in favor of elecionts, ignoring the GIANT monied interests in elections and the fact that a small segment of the population votes.

Its almost as if you don't care about facts.

The problem is with these polls in the first place. I am not trying to undermine the value of statistics here but don't forget the old saying about "lies, damned lies and then statistics".

Well, they have their problems, but they're the most accurate way to examime public opinion thats available, so use them in combination and context.

[Hexen]

the U.S is a democracy, but not a free one.

To better explain it, the US is basically a "democracy" for the wealthy few while everyone else below them (us) is just their slaves (er...I mean "workers"/"shareholders" which are just common euphemisms).

[ComradeMan]

Plutonomy.

[Pierre.Laporte]

I agree with Comrademan to a point, we don't know the specifics of how the poll was conducted. There's always reasons to be skeptical and we should look at the money behind it to see where it was coming from. It doesn't completely invalidate the poll, but just means we shouldn't rely on it.

I think there's something to be said about the point that RGacky3 made. You don't need statistics to prove it, however. In my previous post I noted how in my opinion, the buzz words that politicians use borrow from innate anti-capitalist views held by many Americans, but then distorted to support neoliberal causes. We can also look at the United States historically and see the huge numbers in the IWW and the Socialist Party. Clearly a great deal of Americans have flirted with leftist ideas. We wouldn't have had the first red scare had this not been the case.

How come we can't get similar numbers? The position that I hold is that the problem lies in two fronts. On one hand any leftist has taken a beating by gigantic propaganda campaigns. Anarchist, communist, socialist, we are all hated by those that hold power (largely corporate with most of government being their puppets). Another problem that we face is that radicals in this era can only relate to other radicals. I think as a whole each of us has done a poor job of trying to outreach to average working class citizens to enlighten them with radical ideas. In the past we saw our predecessors do a fantastic job through literature distribution, lectures, and discussion. Outreach, perhaps along those lines, needs to occur again.

[RGacky3]

I agree with Comrademan to a point, we don't know the specifics of how the poll was conducted. There's always reasons to be skeptical and we should look at the money behind it to see where it was coming from. It doesn't completely invalidate the poll, but just means we shouldn't rely on it.

Yes we do,

"NOTE: This poll was conducted by telephone November 29–December 2, 2010, at the CBS News interviewing facility among a random sample of 1,137 adults nationwide. Some low-percentage answer choices have been omitted. "

I think there's something to be said about the point that RGacky3 made. You don't need statistics to prove it, however. In my previous post I noted how in my opinion, the buzz words that politicians use borrow from innate anti-capitalist views held by many Americans, but then distorted to support neoliberal causes.

Which is why the word "socialist" generally polls MUCH MUCH lower than than actual socialist ideas, which is because socialism has been made a dirty word.

Thats why with statistics I generally prefer ones specific issues, rather than political labels, which can be twisted.

[ComradeMan]

Yes we do,

"NOTE: This poll was conducted by telephone November 29–December 2, 2010, at the CBS News interviewing facility among a random sample of 1,137 adults nationwide. Some low-percentage answer choices have been omitted. ".

Telephone poll Could suggest response bias because you wanted to sound nice to that sexy voice over the phone.

[danyboy27]

To better explain it, the US is basically a "democracy" for the wealthy few while everyone else below them (us) is just their slaves (er...I mean "workers"/"shareholders" which are just common euphemisms).

this is much more complicated than that.

in theory, this kind of democracy can work and is efficient, having elites forced to do a respectable legislative job for the will of the people have worked in the past in many civilisation, but sooner or later, the particular will of some individual with vested interest kick in and replace the general will.

the roman republic, before it became an autocratic system was a pretty good at the time, but ultimately, when the senate took over and designated their homeboy to rule the show, it was the begining of the end.

the problems we have today with capitalism is somehow the same we had in the past with monarchy; those who run the show dosnt have to be competent to have all this power over other, and power without accountability lead to major clusterfuck.

[ComradeMan]

the roman republic, before it became an autocratic system was a pretty good at the time, but ultimately, when the senate took over and designated their homeboy to rule the show, it was the begining of the end..

I'm not quite sure that's how it went really....

In fact Caesar was progressive, the Gracchi had also been progressive and were "against" the status quo who held power in the Senate. The Senate didn't take over, it was the Senatorial system with two consuls that replaced the monarchy.

I like the idea of the Senate's homeboy though... unfortunately I don't think they did Ray Bans at the time but cruising around in your toga, chariot and sunglasses would have been cool all the same...

[Bud Struggle]

The poll was a piece of fluff conducted in about as unscientific manner as possible. It not only is misleading it is an outright farce.

I support highter taxes for the rich--does that make me a radical. I also would like to live in Narnia--does that make me a radical?

I don't think that bowties should be abolished (I wear them on occasion) does that make me a Reactionary?

This entire thread is a cross between wishful thinking and a bade joke.

I would suggest that the OP actually READ THE POLL before he post threads on it.