Are "meat workers" counter-revolutionary

[Fawkes]

This question is directed toward those that view animals as being equal to and deserving of the same rights as those allocated to humans; to those that view the "liberation" of animals as an integral part of a socialist revolution. Given that slaughterhouse workers, butchers, grocery store employees, farmers, truck drivers, etc. facilitate the killing and consumption of animals, do you see them as counterrevolutionary and reactionary? (Even though this seems like a flamebait, I'm actually interested in how people justify this)

I mean, if the liberation of "oppressed" animals is viewed as being a congenital aspect of revolution, how are farmers and slaughterhouse workers any different from cops and prison guards? Most on the left are quick to dismiss the latter two aforementioned professions as reactionary and counterrevolutionary, so how do you view workers in the food industry?

I mean, some animal liberationists even go so far as to equate the plight of farmed animals to things like this:


So, is that farmhand that's feeding the bulls some grain occupying the same position as the SS guard at Auschwitz? And if not, then why?

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it seems the logical conclusion (from this horribly illogical ideology) is that the truck driver transporting chickens to a slaughterhouse is no different from the train operator transporting Jews to a concentration camp.

So, should all of the millions that work in the food industry get Nuremburgered (see what I did thar)? If not, throws a bit of a wrench in the works of your beliefs now doesn't it?

[Quail]

I don't actually think that animals are equal to humans, but I have nothing better to do so I'll give you my opinions.

This question is directed toward those that view animals as being equal to and deserving of the same rights as those allocated to humans; to those that view the "liberation" of animals as an integral part of a socialist revolution. Given that slaughterhouse workers, butchers, grocery store employees, farmers, truck drivers, etc. facilitate the killing and consumption of animals, do you see them as counterrevolutionary and reactionary? (Even though this seems like a flamebait, I'm actually interested in how people justify this)

I mean, if the liberation of "oppressed" animals is viewed as being a congenital aspect of revolution, how are farmers and slaughterhouse workers any different from cops and prison guards? Most on the left are quick to dismiss the latter two aforementioned professions as reactionary and counterrevolutionary, so how do you view workers in the food industry?

I don't see workers that are involved in the production of meat as reactionary (even though I disagree with eating meat because of the unnecessary suffering it causes and because the way it is produced is highly unsustainable) because a lot of those workers are poorly paid manual workers who are just making a living. Besides, by working in the meat industry, you're hardly working for the state and supporting its power.

I mean, some animal liberationists even go so far as to equate the plight of farmed animals to things like this:


So, is that farmhand that's feeding the bulls some grain occupying the same position as the SS guard at Auschwitz? And if not, then why?

I think this sort of propaganda is pretty offensive to the people who were affected by the holocaust. I don't think that animals should suffer unnecessarily, but the way that capitalism works means that meat is produced in a cheap, cruel and environmentally damaging way, and there is very little we can do to change that within the framework of capitalism. I wouldn't want everyone to stop eating meat. It's a personal choice. However, it would be better for the animals and for the environment if the animals weren't factory farmed.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it seems the logical conclusion (from this horribly illogical ideology) is that the truck driver transporting chickens to a slaughterhouse is no different from the train operator transporting Jews to a concentration camp.

So, should all of the millions that work in the food industry get Nuremburgered (see what I did thar)? If not, throws a bit of a wrench in the works of your beliefs now doesn't it?

See above.

I'm probably not the best person to respond to this. Have fun with the shitstorm that this thread is inevitably going to cause

[Fawkes]

but I have nothing better to do

Haha, why do you think I made this thread in the first place

Besides, by working in the meat industry, you're hardly working for the state and supporting its power.

Of course not, but if animals are seen as being equal to humans, which I know some people on this site believe, then workers in the meat industry are instrumental in the continued subjugation of animals just like cops are in the subjugation of the working class.

I wouldn't want everyone to stop eating meat. It's a personal choice. However, it would be better for the animals and for the environment if the animals weren't factory farmed.

You're largely right, but for the sake of me not going off on an off-topic tangent, I'll leave it at that I guess.

I'm probably not the best person to respond to this.

Nevertheless appreciated

Have fun with the shitstorm that this thread is inevitably going to cause

Oh I will

[hatzel]

I can state for a fact that the H-word is pretty much totally taboo in animal liberation circles. There are a few who go in for all those Holocaust analogies, whilst the other 99% of people in the movement just...



HOWEVER...go on an animal liberation march, and there's a strong chance they'll start screaming 'shame on you!' and 'blood on your hands!' at any butcher's or leather shop. From personal experience. Presumably these people would tell you that the butcher is reactionary, as he has blood on his hands, but once again, there are many more moderate types in the movement. And those moderates really hate it when a load of veganarchist black bloc types show up and start ruining the whole march with their totally unrelated anarchist slogans and insults aimed at anybody who doesn't subscribe to their viewpoint. Isolates the townsfolk, apparently. I've known for people in animal liberation marches to actually apologise to people on the street after veganarchists start calling everybody fascists and looking for a bit of a ruck, saying 'I promise we're not all like that'. In summary...there's a definitely schism in the animal liberation movement, but those who consider themselves more concerned with animal rights and antispe are a lot less likely to subscribe to the whole meat workers = reactionary idea than those who call themselves veganarchists. The former concentrate more on the systems in place, and changing them, and don't really go in so much for victimising those who participate in the aforementioned systems...

[red cat]

I don't actually think that animals are equal to humans, but I have nothing better to do so I'll give you my opinions.


I don't see workers that are involved in the production of meat as reactionary (even though I disagree with eating meat because of the unnecessary suffering it causes and because the way it is produced is highly unsustainable) because a lot of those workers are poorly paid manual workers who are just making a living. Besides, by working in the meat industry, you're hardly working for the state and supporting its power.


I think this sort of propaganda is pretty offensive to the people who were affected by the holocaust. I don't think that animals should suffer unnecessarily, but the way that capitalism works means that meat is produced in a cheap, cruel and environmentally damaging way, and there is very little we can do to change that within the framework of capitalism. I wouldn't want everyone to stop eating meat. It's a personal choice. However, it would be better for the animals and for the environment if the animals weren't factory farmed.


See above.

I'm probably not the best person to respond to this. Have fun with the shitstorm that this thread is inevitably going to cause

I respect vegetarianism as an ideology. But equating animals with human beings is not logical. I personally think that we should be free to kill animals for food, defense of self and property, and for scientific advancements.

Most of the animal rights movements I have seen so far actively help the bourgeoisie, as capitalists pretend to spend a lot behind welfare of animals for slaughter, and at the same time these workers are socially criminalized, so that there union activities are frowned upon and as a result their wages go down. Also, local companies can be attacked by animal rights activists to stop local production. When a market is thus cleared, an MNC enters with its much costlier products and all of these activists then become astonishingly silent. All this leads me to believe that the major animal rights movements are nothing but a social tool of the bourgeoisie to attack the working class.

To avoid confusion, I should mention that I support the conservation of nature and I am opposed to construction, mining, timbering etc in forests until they are not done solely for social welfare.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

The meat worker is hardly in the position of the SS Guard - in the context of capitalism, they're more like Kapos. This is especially so given that they are disproportionately people of colour, undocumented migrants, etc., and that the working conditions in slaughter-houses (and the meat industry in general) are, even by the standards of industrial work, extremely dangerous, with a high risk of serious injury, infection, poisoning, or death.

Further, the whole, "Holocaust! The obscene, unparallelled, brtual moment of modernity!" narrative is incredibly naive and ahistorical. To demonize the the conductors of the deathcamp trains as monsters is to deny the disturbing banality of mass-slaughter perpetuated by mass society that is ongoing. Nous Sommes Tous Les Juifs Et Les Allemands.

So are the truckers moving animals, raised in factory-cages, pumped full of hormones and antibiotics, etc. any better than the not-particularly-exceptional conductors of death-trains? No, I don't think they are, but, by the same token, that is because of their complicity in capital-in-general as much as because of their specific task: Every clerk, bus driver, bureaucrat, prison guard, etc. is guilty insofar as they are not in revolt against the existent (as are we). The question is not one of establishing who is guilty, but who stands in the way of destroying the existent.

Whether or not one is a (counter-/)revolutionary is less a question of position within capital, but where and when one does (or does not) enter into conflict with it. The exceptional role of the police is that they're consistently in the way (along with recouperationist union bosses, reactionary vigilantes, rapists, etc.) - I'm not interested in passing in moral judgment on them, only in their destruction-as-police. Unlike, say slaughterhouse workers (who would likely prefer to not be working in slaughterhouses), the difference is that more police need bricks to the face to prevent them from being police.

As to the question of animals, I think it is worth drawing a distinction between relationships between people and animals that are mediated by capital, and those that are not. there is a significant difference between existing systems of factory farming, mass slaughter, etc., and subsistence hunting, herding, and small-scale animal agriculture.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Also, I think it's worth noting that, contrary to deeply ingrained ideology humans are animals.

Sometimes we should kill certain animals (human or non-human) - sometimes we shouldn't.

[Veg_Athei_Socialist]

If anyone here hasn't already read this there is an interesting book called Making A Killing: The Political Economy Of Animal Rights by Bob Torres talking about capitalism and its effect on animal exploitation.

[Quail]

I respect vegetarianism as an ideology. But equating animals with human beings is not logical. I personally think that we should be free to kill animals for food, defense of self and property, and for scientific advancements.

Most of the animal rights movements I have seen so far actively help the bourgeoisie, as capitalists pretend to spend a lot behind welfare of animals for slaughter, and at the same time these workers are socially criminalized, so that there union activities are frowned upon and as a result their wages go down. Also, local companies can be attacked by animal rights activists to stop local production. When a market is thus cleared, an MNC enters with its much costlier products and all of these activists then become astonishingly silent. All this leads me to believe that the major animal rights movements are nothing but a social tool of the bourgeoisie to attack the working class.

To avoid confusion, I should mention that I support the conservation of nature and I am opposed to construction, mining, timbering etc in forests until they are not done solely for social welfare.

I think you may have misread my post:

I don't actually think that animals are equal to humans

I also don't have a problem with necessary animal testing (i.e. for worthwhile stuff, not cosmetics), or with the idea of eating meat when there is no real alternative. If I had no alternative to meat, I would eat it, but veggie food is easily accessible and cheap.

[red cat]

I think you may have misread my post:

I also don't have a problem with necessary animal testing (i.e. for worthwhile stuff, not cosmetics), or with the idea of eating meat when there is no real alternative. If I had no alternative to meat, I would eat it, but veggie food is easily accessible and cheap.

Sorry, I wanted to quote the OP.

[9]

What a ridiculous question.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've worked in the "meat industry" for a pretty long time. The ways that humans procure meat often results in tremendous waste/ineffeciency (through overfishing, waste expenditure vis-a-vis the beef industry, etc.) but to compare meat industry workers to Holocaust henchmen or to even say that they're "counter-revolutionary" as a result of their job is patently absurd. I'm a lot more interested in liberating myself and my fellow homo sapiens then I am about liberating pigs and cows.

[Fawkes]

I'm gonna respond to the other posts when I have more time, which I don't now, but I just wanted to quickly address this:

What a ridiculous question.

Did you actually read any of the post or are you just responding to the thread title?

[9]

Did you actually read any of the post or are you just responding to the thread title?

nope, was just responding to the thread title
sorry about that, i came home during my lunch break for about five minutes, so was in a bit of a rush...

[Rafiq]

I think they are taking the book "animal farm" seriously, thinking it wasnt about the russiN revolution

[scarletghoul]

It's not even about 'equality'; whatever you think of animals, the mass slaughter of them is not propping up the capitalist order.. Meat workers are neither subjectively nor objectively counter-revolutionary.

In fact, the slaughter of a certain kind of pig can aid the revolution...

[Jazzratt]

I was once told by a particularly strident vegan type that being a butcher should be considered on par with a war crime.

Aside nutters like that though this is largely irrelevant to most vegetarians for whom their dietry decision is a purely personal one.

[Ele'ill]

This question is directed toward those that view animals as being equal to and deserving of the same rights as those allocated to humans; to those that view the "liberation" of animals as an integral part of a socialist revolution. Given that slaughterhouse workers, butchers, grocery store employees, farmers, truck drivers, etc. facilitate the killing and consumption of animals, do you see them as counterrevolutionary and reactionary? (Even though this seems like a flamebait, I'm actually interested in how people justify this)

I mean, if the liberation of "oppressed" animals is viewed as being a congenital aspect of revolution, how are farmers and slaughterhouse workers any different from cops and prison guards? Most on the left are quick to dismiss the latter two aforementioned professions as reactionary and counterrevolutionary, so how do you view workers in the food industry?

I mean, some animal liberationists even go so far as to equate the plight of farmed animals to things like this:


So, is that farmhand that's feeding the bulls some grain occupying the same position as the SS guard at Auschwitz? And if not, then why?

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it seems the logical conclusion (from this horribly illogical ideology) is that the truck driver transporting chickens to a slaughterhouse is no different from the train operator transporting Jews to a concentration camp.

So, should all of the millions that work in the food industry get Nuremburgered (see what I did thar)? If not, throws a bit of a wrench in the works of your beliefs now doesn't it?

The systems in place that allow for mass factory farming and other negative aspects of industry, a military to be used as it is and the police force required to protect what it does is the probem. People take jobs because the jobs are there or there's an attraction to it such free college or a family tradition which I think would apply for some food industry facilities, butchers, cops and military and the fact that a lot of people are naive to how the world operates around them and their own place within it.

We're not out to round up each cop or soldier we're out to change the system that allows their occupation's undesirable purpose.

Edit- We also wouldn't go on a seek and destroy mission to hang every cop, prison guard and soldier. Although I think those careers are much different than what's offered within the food industry to begin with and thus isn't a very good example.

[Niccolò Rossi]

the mass slaughter of them is not propping up the capitalist order..

This is arguable. I would highly recommend 'Beasts of Burden: Capitalism, Animals, Communism' from Antagonism. It gives a fascinating account of the domestication and mass slaughter of animals as it relates to the rise of civilisation and class society up to and including modern capitalism. I really enjoyed it, despite eating more animals each day than probably anyone on this forum...

Nic.

[Pretty Flaco]

I need to eat meat to have a sufficient diet.

And why would the workers be counter-revolutionary? Many of them probably work in that field because it's the only job they were able to get. I doubt working in a slaughterhouse is very enjoyable.